New dog and raw feed

[John Gryphon]

Personally I regard the raw feeding fad as a load of tripe (pun intended) I don’t accept that cooking food is so harmful. I get that people want to give a home produced diet and I support that but for the love of God cook anything that you would cook before you yourself would eat it rather than feeding it raw!

Some words to ponder in this lot.

Cooked vs Raw: Should I Cook My Dog’s Dinner? — Whoa Nelly! Raw Dog Food

The pros and cons of cooking dog food 👩‍🍳

www.whoanelly.com.au

 

[Selous]

Some words to ponder in this lot.

Cooked vs Raw: Should I Cook My Dog’s Dinner? — Whoa Nelly! Raw Dog Food

The pros and cons of cooking dog food 👩‍🍳

www.whoanelly.com.au

You don’t have to look far to realise what utter shinola they are spouting….

When this occurs in the extreme (like when manufacturing kibble) the protein’s shape is altered and may no longer be recognised as food.

So whether food is cooked or not the protein enters the digestive tract and is acted upon by enzymes including proteases which break the proteins down into amino acids that can be absorbed. Do you not think that this also changes the proteins shape? Utter tosh….”protein not be recognised as food”, the proteases will act on the intermolecular bonds and reduce the protein polymer to monomers. If cooking did this in this manner how do humans who share the mammalian biology with dogs live so long eating largely cooked foods. Do you think that Neolithic man (pre cooking) lived longer than modern man??

 

[John Gryphon]

You don’t have to look far to realise what utter shinola they are spouting

I have no idea although I do know that one can cook vitamins in our own food.

Are you a chemist?

 

[Buchan]

Yes and have done with farm bred hunting dogs over a lot of years. There is raw cheyte bought in a pack and there is raw as in a deer carcase, (or other) today a leg chopped up with an axe that`s fed to the dog/s hide and bone included. I will drop the guts out of a deer and the dogs will eat the fat off the runners, that is after the heart kidneys liver etc. Its balanced by them and fat is important especially in winter for the warmth.
Will add I often eat the livers, makes me shine lol.


I can counter that with perhaps the raw food that has been fed to them is full of chemicals, wild raw game certainly isn't and dogs never ever get crook from it.

I have oft wondered how strong is the 40ml of chemical pour on when its applied to a 1000lb steers backline that can work its way through the hide into the body/bloodstream and still be effective.. we eat the beef and so do the dogs. Is there a possibility that the dogs react to these chems? Yes there is a withholding period of X amount of days after drenching but there is always a "but"

Like I said, feed the stuff you know by all means but the commercial stuff is the problem. Ironic really as the raw advocates will say, "manufactured food is bad". You can feed balanced, but it's hard to do and do properly which is why vets say - shovel the kibble out. The anecdotal evidence of fewer trips to the vet is just that, anecdote, so not evidence> But fine, you feed what suits you.
The relationship between food and stool solidity is only an issue for picking it up.
Regarding withdrawal periods - they are calculated with huge safety margins, so the food is safe

 

[John Gryphon]

The anecdotal evidence of fewer trips to the vet is just that, anecdote, so not evidence

Its evidence for us bush boys, its certainly not anecdotal. Dogs that live/lived their life out with one trip to the vet as a pup for inoculations. no return trips. Some dogs I personally know of haven't even been inoculated.

The relationship between food and stool solidity is only an issue for picking it up.

Don`t forget size.

 

[Andrewslater]

This is a bit like asking this list to recommend a rifle or a scope...

Feed raw it if you want and you can do it in a balanced way (and have no one who is immunosuppressed in the home). But bear in mind that the claims for raw feeding's benefit are not supported by any evidence, they are just a feeling. There is a very loud, very misguided narrative stating modern dog food is the cause of multiple illnesses and it often has a very anti-vet element, suggesting we are all in a conspiracy with the manufacturers. Dogs are scavengers and with our breeding have become very adaptable to any food source, including grains. So the general advice vets give to owners is pick a good balanced diet that you can trust, which usually means one by the bigger companies. This is because most owners want convenience, haven't the time to balance a food and don't like the mess of feeding a whole rabbit. Do we sell it - of course, we have staff to pay (including ourselves).

There are plenty of folk on here who regularly feed what they have shot and that's fine - you know the source and it hasn't been minced and come from several sources. This is where I have a big problem with raw - the potential for contamination. I've reported on here of the 100+ cats with TB from raw feeding and there are papers showing higher levels of salmonella etc with raw food.

So personally I'd stick with the kibble and the odd extra from your shooting. The pig's ear is a chewing snack and unlikely to clean the teeth.

As an aside, one area we, as vets have possibly been wrong is to advocate "one food and stick to it" for puppies. The next one I get will get a variety of types of food, as there is some thought that this allows the gut to be more resilient to changes.

Where you say hasnt been minced. Is there a particular concern with mincing the meat before giving to the dogs?

I tend to run my own venison mince through the mincer followed by whatever i decide to feed to the dogs including the offal and trim.

 

[GBR66]

I bought a cheap electric mince on Amazon , bought the high fat supermarket beef mince, minced chicken wings, offal (supermarket or home made) added a mix of boiled veg and cod liver oil. bagged it up in 1 day/3 dog batches and froze it. Dogs never left a scrap, I have been too busy/lazy for the last 2 years and feeding commercial wet and dry mixed and chicken wings - this has inspired me to go back to it. The cost even if all human grade bought food was cheaper than commercial good quality feed.

 

[Wmjas]

This thread and many others that I’ve seen around “feeding raw” always make me smile.

As a shepherd in New Zealand for the last ten years I have had a team of anywhere between 6-10 dogs depending on how many pups I was training or old ones I was waiting to retire. We have lived mostly on high country properties, mostly with 2-3 other shepherds/managers etc. this means that the farms were feeding somewhere in the region of 12-30 dogs everyday. The cost of this in biscuits would obviously be ridiculous so just about every farm in NZ has a mob of dog tuckers, usually sick/old/injured ewes and rams. These were usually killed and skinned as a wet Friday afternoon job, done on the gratings of the woolshed to save washing the blood away. Depending on the amount of sheep killed in a session we sometimes kept and boiled the offal but more often than not the carcasses were chucked in a freezer and then hacked up with an blunt axe over the course of a week. I say this because I have never in 10 years of doing this seen a dog get sick from raw meat, they would eat it bones and all. I even worked for a guy who would buy whole dead chickens from an egg farm, freeze them and feed them whole in the feather and his dogs ate the lot! The only reason we fed biscuits was that there wouldn’t be enough dog tuckers to feed year round so we would do week about of biscuits then meat to stretch them out.

I know you guys probably aren’t allowed to do this or have access to livestock but I am telling you, hand on heart that a dog will be fine eating almost any type of raw meat.

One word of warning though, if you are feeding your dogs cooked offal, make sure you give them a good run in the morning and pack a peg for your nose!!!

 

[John Gryphon]

This thread and many others that I’ve seen around “feeding raw” always make me smile.

As a shepherd in New Zealand for the last ten years I have had a team of anywhere between 6-10 dogs depending on how many pups I was training or old ones I was waiting to retire. We have lived mostly on high country properties, mostly with 2-3 other shepherds/managers etc. this means that the farms were feeding somewhere in the region of 12-30 dogs everyday. The cost of this in biscuits would obviously be ridiculous so just about every farm in NZ has a mob of dog tuckers, usually sick/old/injured ewes and rams. These were usually killed and skinned as a wet Friday afternoon job, done on the gratings of the woolshed to save washing the blood away. Depending on the amount of sheep killed in a session we sometimes kept and boiled the offal but more often than not the carcasses were chucked in a freezer and then hacked up with an blunt axe over the course of a week. I say this because I have never in 10 years of doing this seen a dog get sick from raw meat, they would eat it bones and all. I even worked for a guy who would buy whole dead chickens from an egg farm, freeze them and feed them whole in the feather and his dogs ate the lot! The only reason we fed biscuits was that there wouldn’t be enough dog tuckers to feed year round so we would do week about of biscuits then meat to stretch them out.

I know you guys probably aren’t allowed to do this or have access to livestock but I am telling you, hand on heart that a dog will be fine eating almost any type of raw meat.

One word of warning though, if you are feeding your dogs cooked offal, make sure you give them a good run in the morning and pack a peg for your nose!!!

AMEN.

 

[Buchan]

Read My Post!!

Feed raw, fine. Whole carcass where you know the provenance, fine. Your dog, your choice.

Commercially available minced meat and offal as sold to the fwits who think it is "natural" - not fine. This is where the problem lies and where, as a vet, I need to point out the risks and that's what the OP asked.

Anecdote isn't evidence, it's full of other bias and confounders and absolutely proper working dogs hardly go to the vet, but there are lots of factors other than a raw diet that contributes to that.

 

[Buchan]

Where you say hasnt been minced. Is there a particular concern with mincing the meat before giving to the dogs?

I tend to run my own venison mince through the mincer followed by whatever i decide to feed to the dogs including the offal and trim.

It just increases the surface area, so any break in hygiene can be an expansion of contamination. Many gut bacteria are quite happy in the gut, but let them spread on a big surface area and you have problems. Bacteria in the lab are grown on blood with a bit of seaweed to make it a gel. Mince is a perfect growth medium as it is almost the same. (And, to be honest, I do love a venison tartare when I'm cutting up, cracking with a strong black coffee when I've finished trimming the loins,)
Your sourced venison should be fine. But personally I'd be leaving it in chunks.

 

[Wmjas]

Read My Post!!

Feed raw, fine. Whole carcass where you know the provenance, fine. Your dog, your choice.

Commercially available minced meat and offal as sold to the fwits who think it is "natural" - not fine. This is where the problem lies and where, as a vet, I need to point out the risks and that's what the OP asked.

Anecdote isn't evidence, it's full of other bias and confounders and absolutely proper working dogs hardly go to the vet, but there are lots of factors other than a raw diet that contributes to that.

Sorry, my post wasn’t meant as a response to anyone in particular, more a statement on a few different “raw diet” posts I’ve seen recently.

I also have very little experience of dog ownership in the UK so can only imagine some of the dross you would have to deal with as a vet…

 

[Buchan]

Sorry, my post wasn’t meant as a response to anyone in particular, more a statement on a few different “raw diet” posts I’ve seen recently.

I also have very little experience of dog ownership in the UK so can only imagine some of the dross you would have to deal with as a vet…

Also sorry, it was a crap start to the day!! At a sheep vet meeting we had a presentation from a NZ shepherd, someone asked what he did with the dead stock "what do you think the dogs eat" was the reply!

 

[sauer]

i do often think we over think or complicate things in the uk... be it legislation or just folk going for a darwin award ....

i guess you do what suits you as long as you
1. keep it clean
2. keep hygeine standards ( not feeding meat been out rotting etc )
3. USE YOUR COMMON SENSE

Paul

 

[rem284]

I've started feeding my dogs some raw venison. One bitch is lean, raw meat seems to be the only thing that puts a bit of weight on. They also seem calmer

 

[nun_hunter]

The relationship between food and stool solidity is only an issue for picking it up.

Is there a link between a dog's diet and having issues with their anal glands?

If not what is the cause for some dogs needing to have them emptied?

 

[Buchan]

Is there a link between a dog's diet and having issues with their anal glands?

If not what is the cause for some dogs needing to have them emptied?

Standard answer is that a diet that leads to bricks empties the glands better (or a bulking up with fibre). I'm not aware of studies testing this and I'm also aware of dogs emptying them after defaecation as a scent mark.
A number of vets (self included) think that the anal sac gets the blame for a general itchy bum, so some years ago I changed my treatment and sorted the itch first. As many anal sac problems got steroid as a treatment, it's not surprising it suppressed the real cause of an underlying allergy and or excess yeasts around the anal area

 

[Yorkie]

Hi.
I am not a Vet or nutritional expert. All i can say on the subject of Kibble style feed, is that my Terrier ate nothing but Hills Science Diet all his life and made it to 17 years old. Healthy and energetic all his life. And yes, it was recommended by and purchased from the Vet.

Was i a sucker? Was i just lucky?

 

[nun_hunter]

Standard answer is that a diet that leads to bricks empties the glands better (or a bulking up with fibre). I'm not aware of studies testing this and I'm also aware of dogs emptying them after defaecation as a scent mark.
A number of vets (self included) think that the anal sac gets the blame for a general itchy bum, so some years ago I changed my treatment and sorted the itch first. As many anal sac problems got steroid as a treatment, it's not surprising it suppressed the real cause of an underlying allergy and or excess yeasts around the anal area

Thanks for taking the time to answer that.

 

[Top Spanish Hunting]

We give our bavarian hounds a lot of raw meat all the waste from the animals we hunt. They love it and dosent cause them any harm, more natural diet.