I worked on my then girlfiend's fathers fruit farm in East Kent in the summer of 1983. Even back then at least half of the pickers were foreign. One day the local benefits dept turned up at the farm door - by the time they got out to the orchard all they found was half-filled baskets of apples but no pickers... They were pretty much all claiming benefits and being paid cash - aahh the good old days!
No, no, no!
- Thread starter enfieldspares
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John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
That is what Don Logan said......
No, no, no!
No, no, no!
Brits could just as easily stay on site until the job was done.
The main reason why British workers aren't doing these jobs is that Brits don't have the work ethic that their Eastern European counterparts have. Sad but true.
Not true, just a lazy trope. Migrant workers are not working for comparable pay because they can work for less than their British counterparts and then transfer their income to their home country where it will balloon to many times its UK value. British workers can't do that so they are working for far less than eastern European migrants with very much bleaker prospects of material improvement.
You're confusing work ethic with motivation. The lowest paid UK workers have no motivation to work hard in their own country for a very low income that will trap them in indefinite poverty with no prospect of career or material advancement. Eastern Europeans are highly motivated because they can take their money out of the country and thereby increase its value five or six fold. That is motivation indeed.
That would be like me going abroad and being able to earn the UK equivalent of £250,000 a year for laying bricks. Even at 53 years old, if there was anywhere in the world I could do that I'd be there like a shot and I'd work seven days a week at it, especially if I could claim benefits for my family at home at the same time. I stick it for ten years then I'd come home and buy a very nice house and a nice chunk of land. If I'd started doing it when I was twenty I'd be a wealthy man by now.
You can't call a UK worker lazy in comparison to an eastern European when they're working the same job to such starkly different ends.
Furthermore, people on the minimum wage generally contribute less than £4000 a year in taxation to the treasury but they consume about £9000 of services. It makes sense for the rest of society to cover that deficit for UK workers because it is cheaper than having them trapped forever in the welfare system. It makes no sense at all to hand those jobs to foreign migrant workers because then you're paying twice, once to top up the income of the migrants through the welfare system and then again to keep the UK workers they've displaced on the dole. On top of that the migrants take as much of their earnings as they can out of the country whereas a UK worker's income remains in the UK economy.
Rusty Gate
Well-Known Member
Not so much lack motivation & moreso made easy by the current system of it pays to stay home! That system was originally for grafters as a temp fall back plan until next job, all paid in & provided for by all us grafters.
Dole should be goods & energy vouchers, achieved by local council stamping a job card of work completed in the community weekly.......cigs & alcohol are luxury's, something to work for & earn like the rest of us when you get off that system into propper work.
I think the main difference is these foreign workers have never had it easy in their own homeland, I used to travel through Bulgaria, Romania et al, in the early 70's, no used stopping at a shop as there was only bread and chicken in them to buy, their Communist masters had them well under control, and their work ethic was basically "You don't work, you don't eat", as a lot of other immigrants legal or otherwise they really enjoy the freedoms we have, and will not do anything to spoil it for themselves, they don't mind working hard as it's the only thing they know, obviously they have their miscreants just as we do, and we know full well the damage that can be done by the few.
We are better out of the EU but it's no use starving to prove it, we have always had seasonal workers from outside the UK, it's just a matter of control and making sure they leave when the season as ended, but lets face it, our immigration control system is totally crap.
We are better out of the EU but it's no use starving to prove it, we have always had seasonal workers from outside the UK, it's just a matter of control and making sure they leave when the season as ended, but lets face it, our immigration control system is totally crap.
It is also, from first hand experience of it, totally corrupt.
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
In 1973 I was earning £55 before deductions as a designer in Coventry, took a job in Germany doing same work that paid me £250 PW and no tax so was a no brainer in those days
reloader54
Well-Known Member
Nice one Hereford you had me going for a minute. Very true Frenchieboy, enfieldspares, Finch, scoby270 and LuckieEddie. Yes there should be enough British people available this summer but will they do it? It's very unusual to see Brits picking or packing. There are also many Eastern Europeans that live in the UK that are now out of work and they could be targeted by the farms. I know local fruit farms that are taking on young Brits to help with tunnelling and planting. I just hope that some of them will continue working though the harvest.
Riddick. That must be a large farm close to you so I'm amazed that this sort of behaviour is allowed to continue. What is the name of this business? This is disgusting behaviour and should be stopped! I visit many fruit growers across the UK and am in touch with others and don't see this happening. This type of behaviour was more common a few years ago but tighter regulations and the fact that farms are now tightly audited and scrutinised has dramatically reduced this happening. Farms now have to get planning permission for caravan parks and polytunnels and the local authorities will hold several local public meetings. If there are any major objections from people living near the farm then they will be less likely to get permission to expand their business so the farms are very keen to keep the locals happy.
I don't wish to name the farm publicly,however if you are ever in Norfolk, give me a shout and I'll be more than happy to show you the evidence, and provide you with first hand accounts from more sources. should you choose to take the farm or individuals to task be prepared to replace the air in your tyres, and if you complain further the entire set of tyres. and further intimidation.
I have been here over 30 years and in that time I lived with a dutch partner, who in addition to being an MMA fighter and registered door person and personal protection operative, was fluent in many languages, much to the dismay of the many confrontations that were happening at the time, when confronted and asked for ID they strangely reverted to their mother tongue, imagine their surprise when it became obvious she could not only understand their every word, but was quite able and willing to defend herself if needed, [she is 6' 3" and amazonian in stature.]
I'll be honest and state they are not all like this and I have worked with some of the good ones and they are an asset to almost any task they take on, they are often the prey to the extortion gangs.
I haven't heard of anything severe happening of late, but the rubbish noise late at night and defecating everywhere still continues.
last time my boss complained the owners sent a gang to clear up the rubbish they collected over 14 full black bags of bottles, cans, and various takeaway packets and other rubbish, drug user items have also been found but not recently.
I once found a cleared area in one of my woods and cannabis plants planted out and accompanied by everything they needed for cultivation, liquid fertiliser, cloches, having had cameras go missing previously I ran a flail through the whole lot.
don't suppose it made me that popular but hey ho, there ya go.
a cache of stolen diesel was also found and reported to the police, but by the time they got around to doing anything about it it had been sold on and just the tyre tracks and empty containers were left, there was almost 400 gallons.
things are pretty quiet at the moment due to cv-19, but I don't suppose it will last.
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I don't doubt your word Riddick, it's just that I'm surprised that this behaviour is still happening. My colleagues and I visit many fruit growers around the UK and I'm not aware of this sort of problem occurring on any of them. There are, of course, occasional issues in any business but I think that the behaviour you have mentioned is very much in the minority. Unfortunately the minority is what spoils it for the majority of well run businesses staffed by very satisfied British and European employees.
reloader54
Well-Known Member
I thank you for listening. I agree with you comment above.[underlined]
as I said I haven't heard of incident of such severity for some time, but the noise, toilet habits and rubbish remain a problem, compounded now in fact by the latest threat to the spread of cv-19
What you say about the relative value of the pound to Eastern European currencies is true in some cases but not all. The pound is worth 2.5x more to a Bulgarian than to a Brit. This is similar to Romanian workers. This is, of course, why they come here but also the majority of these workers come from the rural areas of their countries where there is little work and wages are low. The Polish are still travelling to the UK/EU but, like the British, don't want harvest work. They want work with guaranteed hours and higher rates of pay and possible career progression. The Polish economy has changed since they joined the EU and now has a better standard of living and more better paid jobs so minimum wage jobs in the UK are less attractive.
As far as motivation is concerned I can see where you are coming from VSS when you say that Brits don't have the same work ethic. My experience is that, at face value, the Eastern European workers are generally more motivated than the British. However, this isn't comparing like with like. The Eastern Europeans have already uprooted themselves and left home and country to travel to a foreign land to do a jobs that they have little idea about. That requires guts and motivation. British workers with that sort of initiative are not likely to be looking for relatively short term sometimes unsociable work that requires them to live in temporary accommodation. As you say Finch this situation may well be different if the wages were better.
I understand what you are saying about the value to the UK of employing Brits at national minimum/living wage. I agree with your reasoning. However, the vast majority of Eastern European workers that come here to do harvest work are temporary migrants that are here for less than 6 months. These people cannot claim any benefits because they don't qualify. The jobs they do are what British workers won't do and while they are here they buy provisions and therefore help support the local economy. Without these workers many growers would not be in business and therefore not produce the fruit and veg that make the UK self-sufficient in certain products for many months of the year. These growing businesses also employ and support many other British people from farm employees to employees of other ancillary businesses associated with the food industry.
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