"Pattern fails before penetration"- Is this the case now with Steel shot?

[Bowland blades]

Yup - same as lead. I have been using steel on the foreshore in standard 2 3/4” as well as 3” loads. Put bird in pattern and they drop dead. Miss and they fly away.

Regardless of type and size of shot most birds have enough feather skin and chest muscle that pellets often don’t reach the vitals. To kill cleanly you need to hit well forward with dense enough pattern to cause good damage to head and neck. I think its a mistake to go too large a size and have an open pattern.

The steel cartridges of ten to fifteen years ago were shite. Modern steel work and I really don’t see any difference to lead. I can miss with both just as easily.

with dense patterns of smaller shot you can really rip a duck to bits and yet as energy is much sooner lost you can fail to bring down larger or slightly further fowl. Shooting smaller shot at geese ie 4s will lead to a lot of wounding unless the bird is well inside a shorter range window. Larger duck are also best shot with 3s or larger ( the Americans often go BB size)
If CIP totally dropped maximum speed and just used pressure and a recommendation of superior steel proof , we would have a lot better ammo . Pheasant cant handle a proper steel duck load the 32 gram standard steel in 4 or 5 is to be recommended but ricochets are to be expected and there will be a lot of injuries to beaters, personally i would wear eye protection

 

[JTO]

As regards spherical steel shot throwing tighter patterns than lead, this seems to be contrary to all the experimenting that some of the people on the wildfowling forum have done. They seem to find that denser shot, no matter what the shape, throws tighter patterns. Hevi-shot, with all its shapes, throws tighter patterns than lead, for example.

 

[Bowland blades]

As regards spherical steel shot throwing tighter patterns than lead, this seems to be contrary to all the experimenting that some of the people on the wildfowling forum have done. They seem to find that denser shot, no matter what the shape, throws tighter patterns. Hevi-shot, with all its shapes, throws tighter patterns than lead, for example.

i dont know what you have been reading but this definitely isnt the case . well documented fact that steel patterns tighter with less fliers , something i have proved many times on my Patterning range and in the field . Shooting steel its far rarer to see a single lucky pellet bring a bird down. Less choke restriction with steel will pattern like a tighter restriction with lead .

 

[Phil fox man]

hi all.
here's my take on steel shot, based on my experience in the field.
due to the ballistics of steel range is the deciding factor.to close and it will pencil through transfering little energy,to far and it will under penatrate or bounce off.
find the range to achieve clean kill's for your shot size.
also watch any birds as they can fly for 100+yds then just drop.
think shooting a fmj round to an.exp round.

 

[HistoricBore]

As regards spherical steel shot throwing tighter patterns than lead, this seems to be contrary to all the experimenting that some of the people on the wildfowling forum have done. They seem to find that denser shot, no matter what the shape, throws tighter patterns. Hevi-shot, with all its shapes, throws tighter patterns than lead, for example.

I have been reading with interest Richard Atkin's "road tests" of steel versus lead, and the steel often seems to pattern worse than lead.....

 

[jacre1993]

I have been reading with interest Richard Atkin's "road tests" of steel versus lead, and the steel often seems to pattern worse than lead.....

Experiment- find what works for you and your ranges.

Although some steel is rubbish . Overall it has come a long way in the last 10 years.

 

[JTO]

i dont know what you have been reading but this definitely isnt the case . well documented fact that steel patterns tighter with less fliers , something i have proved many times on my Patterning range and in the field . Shooting steel its far rarer to see a single lucky pellet bring a bird down. Less choke restriction with steel will pattern like a tighter restriction with lead .

Go on the wildfowling forum and read what member 10-bore has to say on the subject, I'm banned!

 

[JTO]

I have been reading with interest Richard Atkin's "road tests" of steel versus lead, and the steel often seems to pattern worse than lead.....

Seems to be down to specific gravity of the shot, according to others.

 

[Whitefront]

Atkins is way out of date. He's been testing penetration on empty pizza boxes, as if that has any relevance to live quarry coated in skin, fat and feathers. The Cranfield research showed the significance of the covering, with the more spherical steel shot cutting through better and giving better penetration than otherwise predicted. Lead pellets deform in the barrel as they are being blasted up it rather than in flesh (though bones are a different matter) They aren't bullets. And there is little likelihood of lead shot imparting hydrostatic shock - it is travelling much too slowly.

Modern steel shot works well. You just have to experiment and find what suits your type of shooting. If your quarry is pizza boxes, then Atkins may be relevant.

 

[levigsp]

As regards spherical steel shot throwing tighter patterns than lead, this seems to be contrary to all the experimenting that some of the people on the wildfowling forum have done. They seem to find that denser shot, no matter what the shape, throws tighter patterns. Hevi-shot, with all its shapes, throws tighter patterns than lead, for example.

I think your wrong here, it not denser shot that pattern tighter, it's harder shot. The harder the shot the tighter the pattern, so steel tighter than lead and Tss tighter than steel. Hope that helps.

 

[levigsp]

A lot of wild fowlers are constantly chasing speed with their reloads, and what that acheaves is poor pattern due to scatter

 

[JTO]

I think your wrong here, it not denser shot that pattern tighter, it's harder shot. The harder the shot the tighter the pattern, so steel tighter than lead and Tss tighter than steel. Hope that helps.

Better tell the people on the wildfowling forum. I used to use my real name, but after the antis hacked into it, I deleted some posts and got banned for it. I don't think The Lord Begbie has control of it now!

 

[JTO]

Atkins is way out of date. He's been testing penetration on empty pizza boxes, ............ Lead pellets deform in the barrel as they are being blasted up it rather than in flesh (though bones are a different matter)

Modern steel shot works well. You just have to experiment and find what suits your type of shooting. If your quarry is pizza boxes, then Atkins may be relevant.

The issue is patterning, not penetration.
I doubt lead will deform to anything like the shapes that Hevi-shot come in.
I use 42gram steel number 1s in barrels that are said to be 'super chokes', according to the measurements at the muzzle(10-bore). Never seen pattern percentages quoted for 'super chokes'!

 

[Liveonce]

I think you need both, pattern without pellet energy sufficient to penetrate is no good and no pattern with lots of pellet energy again no good.

 

[levigsp]

Better tell the people on the wildfowling forum. I used to use my real name, but after the antis hacked into it, I deleted some posts and got banned for it. I don't think The Lord Begbie has control of it now!

Considering i have been fowling for 60 years and with everything from 410 to 2bore and reloaded for all with most shots available and some that are not I know what is and is not correct.
I do not know which fowling forum you relate to, but those I belong to, dont often make such statements.
Steel [hard iron] not only patterns tighter [for a given choke] but it also has a far shorter shot string than lead and as said, if the pattern is poor, it's down to loading and if it's not tight it is going too fast again down to loading.
My 36gm load of tss going at 1375fps has 100% of it pellets in a 30" circle at 60 yards through a true half choke, if i add 1 grain extra of powder, it takes the speed and pressure up and I get 23% in a 30" circle at 60 yards, or if i increase the choke to 3/4 on the first load I get 50% at 60 yards. that gives you an idea of how it works and steel, behaves exactly the same but at half the distance of tss.

 

[Liveonce]

Considering i have been fowling for 60 years and with everything from 410 to 2bore and reloaded for all with most shots available and some that are not I know what is and is not correct.
I do not know which fowling forum you relate to, but those I belong to, dont often make such statements.
Steel [hard iron] not only patterns tighter [for a given choke] but it also has a far shorter shot string than lead and as said, if the pattern is poor, it's down to loading and if it's not tight it is going too fast again down to loading.
My 36gm load of tss going at 1375fps has 100% of it pellets in a 30" circle at 60 yards through a true half choke, if i add 1 grain extra of powder, it takes the speed and pressure up and I get 23% in a 30" circle at 60 yards, or if i increase the choke to 3/4 on the first load I get 50% at 60 yards. that gives you an idea of how it works and steel, behaves exactly the same but at half the distance of tss.

Find that hard to believe that a 1grain (0.065gm) increase in powder results in 77% of the shot to then fall outside the 30” circle.

 

[jacre1993]

I don’t find it hard to believe .
A little bit of pressure change can completely change accuracy from 1 gun to the next .

Same with rifles - that’s why each barrel likes different bullets and speeds and not a 1 size fits all .

May not affect your gun the same but my point is I believe that this can affect some guns/ loads drastically.

 

[Apthorpe]

Makes you wonder how drastic an effect temperature makes if 1 grain has such an effect.

 

[Liveonce]

Not convinced, sorry a shotgun is a scatter gun no two patters are ever the same, the commercial loading machines load 12000 plus cartridges an hour, 1grain is insignificant statistical variation in a shogun he is probably using around 2grams or more of powder or 31gains. shotguns are low pressure compared to rifle or pistol. If 1 grain of powder could result in a 77% degraded pattern the manufactures would have major problems.
I have loaded many thousands of shotgun cartridges, in .410, 28ga, 20ga and 12ga and pattern tested hundreds and could never associate a change in powder dose of 1grain to such a dramatic cliff edge degrading of pattern.
Plastic wads, fibre wads and yes powder type and charge can influence pattern as will chokes but if such a absolute measured result was possible we would not need chokes.

However if he posted a video showing just that then i will happy to be proved wrong.

 

[Liveonce]

I don’t find it hard to believe .
A little bit of pressure change can completely change accuracy from 1 gun to the next .

Same with rifles - that’s why each barrel likes different bullets and speeds and not a 1 size fits all .

May not affect your gun the same but my point is I believe that this can affect some guns/ loads drastically.

Shotguns intrinsically have no accuracy, unlike a rifle. Put some shotgun cartridges through the proof house you may be surprised at the variation in pressure between each cartridge in a lot tested, which is why they have to pass CIP statistically.