Recoil Management

[Twodogs]

I fully agree with the part where he says that if you are fully focused and concentrating on your target, sight picture, safety etc you will not notice the recoil.
I tend to notice recoil more when range shooting, as opposed to hunting/stalking where there are more factors to concentrate on.

 

[moeggesit]

Are marlin underlevers as sensitive to hold as springers? I have never shot one. And I would be willing to bet most UK shooters (whether you shoot rabbit, fox or deer) haven't either- and likely never will.

Agreed touching any barrel is a bad idea. I have never tested how much it affects accuracy at stalking ranges, however.

Yes airguns are cheap to feed. But the question is whether springers in particular are a good training tool. You can shoot PCPs, rimmies etc very cheaply too.

Indeed the springer lock time is awful. It's a real flaw. I don't see how the need to control this really helps people with modern shooting ?

Do those with a flinch really find shooting a springer helps ? If so- I would think other air rifles would also help at least as well- along with rimfires.

The vast majority of quarry shooting in the UK is performed off sticks or bipod. And you can't use either with a springer.

Giving a youngster with all the time in the world the lowest maintenance gun they can get- a springer- is a great idea IMO. But that's only because all they need is pellets.

But as an actual training tool for bigger guns- I don't think the skills the springer teaches (hold sensitivity) is useful as IMO it doesn't carry over well to 99% of UK shooting situations.

I'm not an especially good shot and have had very little in the way of shooting training. Just mucking about as a kid and carried on I have heard for decades how good springers are for teaching- and I have always struggled with the thought process.

Any shooting is good of course and rhe more experience the better. But are springers patticularly good ? I'm not so sure.

Take 2 beginners- identical twins- 1 trains on a springer and one a PCP. Let's assume that the springer twin hadn't quit with frustration after wounding a lot more quarry.

A year later- they swap- sure the pcp twin will hate the springer. The springer twin will love the pcp.

Now who is the better shot with firearms ?

Give them both a Blaser and they will likely both be excellent shots.
Then give them both Lee Enfields and they may both fare well or they may not, but almost certainly the chap who trained with a springer will do better than the PCP, but not in all cases since no two people are the same.

I agree, it’s hard to go back to a springer after changing to PCP or 22.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Give them both a Blaser and they will likely both be excellent shots.
Then give them both Lee Enfields and they may both fare well or they may not, but almost certainly the chap who trained with a springer will do better than the PCP, but not in all cases since no two people are the same.

I agree, it’s hard to go back to a springer after changing to PCP or 22.

What makes Lee Enfields so difficult to shoot ?

Indeed- going from a PCP to a springer is like giving up your car and getting back on a bike. Fun occasionally. Back to basics and minimalist. But it's not a serious tool. Unless you work for Deliveroo.

 

[moeggesit]

What makes Lee Enfields so difficult to shoot ?

Indeed- going from a PCP to a springer is like giving up your car and getting back on a bike. Fun occasionally. Back to basics and minimalist. But it's not a serious tool. Unless you work for Deliveroo.

If you are a good shot, nothing difficult.

It’s just an example of a well known rifle with particularly slow lock time, meaning you have to keep it steady while the heavy firing pin travel forward, and also the (generally) poor long over travel trigger, by comparison to modern standards anyway. Approx 10milliseconds compared to the early Rem700SA at approx 2.5milliseconds in the 1950’s and Tikka T3 at approx 1.3ms.

In other words anyone can shoot a T3, Blaser etc well, but you have to be a good shot to shoot less refined rifles well.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

If you are a good shot, nothing difficult.

It’s just an example of a well known rifle with particularly slow lock time, meaning you have to keep it steady while the heavy firing pin travel forward, and also the (generally) poor long over travel trigger, by comparison to modern standards anyway. Approx 10milliseconds compared to the early Rem700SA at approx 2.5milliseconds in the 1950’s and Tikka T3 at approx 1.3ms.

In other words anyone can shoot a T3, Blaser etc well, but you have to be a good shot to shoot less refined rifles well.

Interesting- I can see how particularly good technique is needed, how any flinch one has would be punished far more heavily with a longer lock time.

Springers don't have a "lock time" as such- but isn't the equivalent for a springer (from time of trigger pull to pellet exiting) many many times longer ?

With no real recoil (at least not enough to desensitise a flinch)- and no real noise- I really don't see how the springer will help someone shoot a long lock time rifle ?

 

[moeggesit]

Interesting- I can see how particularly good technique is needed, how any flinch one has would be punished far more heavily with a longer lock time.

Springers don't have a "lock time" as such- but isn't the equivalent for a springer (from time of trigger pull to pellet exiting) many many times longer ?

With no real recoil (at least not enough to desensitise a flinch)- and no real noise- I really don't see how the springer will help someone shoot a long lock time rifle ?

Both instances you have to keep it steady until the process from trigger movement until barrel exit is complete. It’s amazing how long 5ms is when you pull the trigger, and hover far you can pull it off target in that time.

You don’t know how much difference it makes until you try it. Same again with muzzle loaders.

Anyway, nothing to do with recoil management except the same applies in terms of keeping it aimed at the target until the bullet hit. Therefore, if you can shoot a springer well, you have mastered trigger control and you will be able to shoot anything else well. Unless you develop a flinch later on.

 

[paulbshooting]

Proper gun fit and practice is key. Practicing from different firing positions if possible to ensure natural point of aim. All my rifles have the same LOP and cheek weld so consistent mounting.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Both instances you have to keep it steady until the process from trigger movement until barrel exit is complete. It’s amazing how long 5ms is when you pull the trigger, and hover far you can pull it off target in that time.

You don’t know how much difference it makes until you try it. Same again with muzzle loaders.

Anyway, nothing to do with recoil management except the same applies in terms of keeping it aimed at the target until the bullet hit. Therefore, if you can shoot a springer well, you have mastered trigger control and you will be able to shoot anything else well. Unless you develop a flinch later on.

A springer certainly teaches you to follow through and keep it steady as you say.

But it doesn't teach anything about shooting off sticks or a bipod (which 99% of centrefire hunting involves).

It also doesn't teach you anything about recoil management- as springers have no real recoil- and nothing that needs to be managed.

Many of the techniques that springers respond to- very gentle holds, artillery holds, consistent hold but in any position- do not carry over well to firearms.

So I agree- they teach one thing well- but don't help in many other ways- and perhaps work against you in some

 

[Greener Jim]

So first some sweeping generalisations, stalkers usually aren't shooters.
They tend to shoot at targets when required like checking zero or when working up a load, and the rest is on deer.
They generally won't shoot many rifles other than their own.
They generally won't run drills like Rifle 10, Rifle Bounce, Cabin Fever etc

None of this is even slightly an issue, it is not required for the overhwelming majority of stalking in the UK.

It does however mean that steps are taken to overcome that lack of practice, with quad sticks, bipod, heavier rifles, more magnification etc becoming the norm.
They make it easier to extract accuracy and reduces the chance of a flinch, which is also not even slightly an issue.

All it means is that the field of experience is small, which is only highlighted when straying from the norm, which most don't.
If they do stray they take sensible steps to avoid flinches, like getting a heavier 30-06 rather than a 6lb 300Wby.

Do I think more stalkers should be shooters, better versed in a wider array of rifles and techniques? Of course, but it isn't necessary, and won't irradicate misplaced shots.

Shooting however is fun, and we should all do more of it.

 

[Heym SR20]

Going back to this old thread. Lots of comments that you can’t shoot spring air rifles off sticks or rest, or for that matter heavy recoiling rifles.

This is only partly correct. Resting them directly on a hard surface does cause them to jump considerably. Shoot a spring air rifles in same way you shoot a double or big game rifle. Take a firm hold of the forend (or barrels in the case of a double) and then lay the back of your hand on the rest, sticks, fence post, branch of tree etc if you are going prone, then lay your forend on the rock, pack, treestump, binoculars or whatever else you are shooting over.

If you want additional support hook you little fingers around the support.

With your trigger hand, rest your elbow on your knee if kneeling or sitting.

 

[cjm1066]

An airpistol PCP or Single Stroke Pneumatic is a good trainer aid as it really punishes poor trigger control.

 

[Scipio]

Some good advice in here i reckon. Just a question, when at the range , shooting from a "table" and using a fairy well balanced and set up rifle, shooting mid sized cartridge like a 308 or 7x57 with 150ish gr bullets, how many shots can you guys take before the shoulder starts to get quite sore?


I'm not talking about the single shot recoil hurting much, but rather the accumulated soreness.


Also, regarding that firm handshake Grip, rolling the shoulder forwards when shooting and pushing the rifle into the shoulder firmly, ( all so that the recoil doesn't carry the rifle too much up and to the side), is perhaps maybe particularly importantly for lighter rifles vs the caliber used , no ?

Because I've heard kipplauf shooters say that it requires some technique change to shoot them well, and the front end of my 20.5 inch barreled stutzen in 7x57 will also fly a good way too, if you don't know how to control it.

 

[timbrayford]

Recoil Management. There are endless discussions on “my rifle won’t group”. And I have seen people go through the doom loop of constantly changing rifles and adding yet more gear to try and make them shoot better.

There seems to be a big trend towards heavy rifles with light recoiling cartridges where recoil is a non issue. You set the rifle on bags and a little whisper touch on the trigger and tiny little group. I think PCP air rifles have a lot to answer for.

Yet most stalking rifles have a reasonable level of recoil, and are light enough that you do need manage this. Video shows this in stark reality. My two take aways are

1) hold the rifle with a firm handshake type grip, and squeeze like a handshake. Not something limp wristed.

2) most of us are happy with a 12 bore. Most shotguns have more recoil than a rifle. And have you ever been really hurt by recoil. I think we have all had a bit of red ness or black bruising, worse still a whack in the eye with a scope.

Have a watch - some good hints and tips.

I'd rather shoot my 270 than a 12 bore any day, especially when it comes to heavy and high velocity shot loads.

 

[timbrayford]

What makes Lee Enfields so difficult to shoot ?

Indeed- going from a PCP to a springer is like giving up your car and getting back on a bike. Fun occasionally. Back to basics and minimalist. But it's not a serious tool. Unless you work for Deliveroo.

Heavy trigger pull and slightly too short stock?

 

[Heym SR20]

Heavy trigger pull and slightly too short stock?

Agreed, although they were issued with various lengths of stock. Heavy brass butt plate allows it to be used as weapon, but not conducive to comfortable shooting.

Trigger pull is two stage with a heavy pull. You were taught to squeeze both hands pulling everything in tight as the sights aligned. I am just old enough that when I was in the cadets our instructors had used the No 4 in anger at Arnheim, in Korea and Malaya.

On the range it wasn’t that difficult to get your marksman badge with a group inside a 4” circle at 100 yards from memory.

I have shot Lee Enfields more recently and surprised at how little they actually recoil. I think the reputation came from complete novices, or in our case 14/15/16 year old cadets freezing and wet on open military ranges having to shoot the bloody things. But I absolutely loved shooting them.

 

[Scipio]

I'd rather shoot my 270 than a 12 bore any day, especially when it comes to heavy and high velocity shot loads.

Funny, i have it the other way around. I've never really thought about recoil when shooting 12 gauge, or gotten battered really, however I have when shooting my 7x57 stutzen .
It was right after I got it, and I hadn't had the stock adapted to me yet, and had to shoot it prone too. Neither my cheek bone nor my shoulder liked that much.

 

[Heym SR20]

Funny, i have it the other way around. I've never really thought about recoil when shooting 12 gauge, or gotten battered really, however I have when shooting my 7x57 stutzen .
It was right after I got it, and I hadn't had the stock adapted to me yet, and had to shoot it prone too. Neither my cheek bone nor my shoulder liked that much.

With a shotgun you hold it firmly with both hands and the arms take a lot of the recoil.

Most people these days seem to shoot a rifle with minimal hold. Works fine on heavy low recoiling rifle. A lightweight stutzen needs holding firmly.

 

[timbrayford]

Agreed, although they were issued with various lengths of stock. Heavy brass butt plate allows it to be used as weapon, but not conducive to comfortable shooting.

Trigger pull is two stage with a heavy pull. You were taught to squeeze both hands pulling everything in tight as the sights aligned. I am just old enough that when I was in the cadets our instructors had used the No 4 in anger at Arnheim, in Korea and Malaya.

On the range it wasn’t that difficult to get your marksman badge with a group inside a 4” circle at 100 yards from memory.

I have shot Lee Enfields more recently and surprised at how little they actually recoil. I think the reputation came from complete novices, or in our case 14/15/16 year old cadets freezing and wet on open military ranges having to shoot the bloody things. But I absolutely loved shooting them.

Yes I qualified for the RAF marksman badge at culdrose when I was in the air cadets back in the 1970s, all that I can remember about it was getting a bruised shoulder. Recently had a go with a no.4 up at the range, my r8 is far more comfortable to shoot. The grouping that my friends get with Lee Enfields fall a long way short of more modern centrefires

 

[timbrayford]

With a shotgun you hold it firmly with both hands and the arms take a lot of the recoil.

Most people these days seem to shoot a rifle with minimal hold. Works fine on heavy low recoiling rifle. A lightweight stutzen needs holding firmly.

With the Stanbury style the fore end hold is much lighter and there's not a great deal to grip on a traditional sxs game gun anyway

 

[Greener Jim]