Rifle safety: a salutary tale

[LostJock]

I sort of agree. However, I also have problems with that logic. I do a lot of teaching and assessing of practical skills. We find that silly mistakes start to happen when people slavishly follow rote learned patterns without engaging their brains to actually think about what they’re doing.


If it does, that round CANNOT PHYSICALLY BE IN THE CHAMBER.!

But I am in a minority on this. People are very devoted to their learned behaviours, especially if it makes them look a little bit hard core and military.

I’ve picked a few things out, as I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, if not all of it.
Yes, rote actions come with risk of no brain involvement. Brain actions are fallible too. Why not do both? I teach skills that require both (almost) autonomous physical inputs linked to high cognitive demands. If one slips the other has to work hard to make up the gap

Agreed, the round you’re holding can not be in the cmber, but that doesn’t mean the chamber is empty...

The ‘look hardcore and military’ bit is an odd comment. I would argue checking the chamber is clear thoroughly isn’t overly military.

Additionally, looking ‘military’ implies you look like someone who uses weapons professionally under high stress circumstances, to a high standard that is rigidly enforced. No bad thing, and considerably better than an ND/sucking chest wound.

No one is going to think you’re Andy McNab by making sure your chamber is empty.

No one is going to think you’re living the secret life of Walter Mitty.

No is forcing you to do it either.

 

[Milligan]

Spend enough time with and around guns and eventually something unexpected will happen, whether it's you or someone else.
Mechanical things and humans are not infallible. Rules 1 and 2 mitigate the risk of this being a life changing event.

Moving through live to clear a rifle isn't ideal but that's my tuppence.
Be safe

 

[Mungo]

Agreed, the round you’re holding can not be in the cmber, but that doesn’t mean the chamber is empty...

How?? If you open the bolt, and are now holding a round, how is it possible for there to be round in the chamber?

Sure, you can close the bolt and chamber another round, but that is true whether you have fingered the chamber or not. As soon as the bolt is closed, all bets are off. But with an open bolt, holding a round is an absolute, cast iron guarantee that the chamber is empty.

What you do next is up to you... my recommendation is to drop the mag before closing the bolt.

 

[Heym SR20]

Traditionally in hill stalking the rifle is carried in a slip with a loaded magazine but with an empty chamber it is also
normally carried by the stalker only removed from the slip and a round chambered in the final approach.

Normally phrased as, "Sir let me take the weight of the rifle as we walk gently up this little hill"

When actually it means "Sir I have had too many f....... idiots arrive (mostly who have read inane shote on SD), load up a round in the vehicle and then proceed to wave a loaded rifle at me all day. See this hole in my hat - that's not for venitilation but was a present from some other twit just like you. So I am carrying the rifle all day and if you don't like it well tough - now lets see if you can handle a wee walk you fat ........... etc etc "

 

[LostJock]

But with an open bolt, holding a round is an absolute, cast iron guarantee that the chamber is empty.

Nonsense. No cast iron guarantees with weapons given the consequences.
Misfeeds, jams and poor ejections happen. It is absolutely possible to chamber a round unintentionally during a mishandled cycling of the action.
It’s equally possible to unload at night, and not know if that noise you heard was a round falling to the floor, or not.

Honestly I’m amazed you haven't seen this happen/nearly happen. All power to you if that’s the case. I have seen it plenty of times with all sorts of weapons, both from operator error and chance.

Mungo, if you don’t want to check the chamber with a finger then so be it. What I would ask is that you don’t have a go at those who do. I’ve done it since I was 13, so won’t be changing.

Rifle safety is nothing to be blasé about, and I really do worry that people are. Same with first aid kits. We see what the rifle does to animals in incredible detail.

 

[Mungo]

Nonsense. No cast iron guarantees with weapons given the consequences.
Misfeeds, jams and poor ejections happen. It is absolutely possible to chamber a round unintentionally during a mishandled cycling of the action.

Ok - explain how you can have a round in the chamber if the bolt is open and you have a round in your hand?

Absolutely agree that at night, you can’t be sure based on sound etc. But then you can’t account for the round, so yes - you do need to check. But if you have it in your hand, and bolt remains open IT IS A COMPLETE, ABSOLUTE PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY for there to be a round in the chamber.

As for seeing things go wrong - of course I’ve seen them, and done stupid things myself. Hence I think the chamber fingering thing is a bit of a pointless distraction a lot of the time. In the dark, if you’ve not got the extracted round in your hand, yes - good idea if you do it properly (which lots of people don’t).

 

[LostJock]

Ok - explain how you can have a round in the chamber if the bolt is open and you have a round in your hand?

Absolutely agree that at night, you can’t be sure based on sound etc. But then you can’t account for the round, so yes - you do need to check. But if you have it in your hand, and bolt remains open IT IS A COMPLETE, ABSOLUTE PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY for there to be a round in the chamber.

Do you operate a rifle with only one round in the rifle at a time? No magazine?

 

[CarlW]

Do you operate a rifle with only one round in the rifle at a time? No magazine?

Beat me to it. Personally, I don't shoot in an environment where I can count every round with confidence.

 

[kennyc]

Ok - explain how you can have a round in the chamber if the bolt is open and you have a round in your hand?

Absolutely agree that at night, you can’t be sure based on sound etc. But then you can’t account for the round, so yes - you do need to check. But if you have it in your hand, and bolt remains open IT IS A COMPLETE, ABSOLUTE PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY for there to be a round in the chamber.

As for seeing things go wrong - of course I’ve seen them, and done stupid things myself. Hence I think the chamber fingering thing is a bit of a pointless distraction a lot of the time. In the dark, if you’ve not got the extracted round in your hand, yes - good idea if you do it properly (which lots of people don’t).

I used to have a Steyr AUG, on one occassion I watched while someone who had been shooting it, dropped the mag, worked the action and locked it back, he handed the rifle to me (it was always pointed in a safe direction before anyone asks) and as is my wont, I carried out a visual/tactile check of the action/chamber (very tactical, the guys are always most impressed ) imagine his embarrasment when I dug a live .223 FMJ out!
I suspect it had been caught up after misfeeding (the rifle hadn't fired and he had assumed it had emptied the mag, reinforced by no round ejecting when he worked the action to clear it)
Moral of the story is you can't check enough and if it hadn't been for "chamber fingering " I might not have spotted the round.

 

[Kalahari]

I used to have a Steyr AUG, on one occassion I watched while someone who had been shooting it, dropped the mag, worked the action and locked it back, he handed the rifle to me (it was always pointed in a safe direction before anyone asks) and as is my wont, I carried out a visual/tactile check of the action/chamber (very tactical, the guys are always most impressed ) imagine his embarrasment when I dug a live .223 FMJ out!
I suspect it had been caught up after misfeeding (the rifle hadn't fired and he had assumed it had emptied the mag, reinforced by no round ejecting when he worked the action to clear it)
Moral of the story is you can't check enough and if it hadn't been for I might not have spotted the round.

Nothing quite like a bit of chamber fingering!!!!

David.

 

[CarlW]

Nothing quite like a bit of chamber fingering!!!!

David.

Particularly if you can feel the marks from when it was reamed...

 

[Mungo]

Beat me to it. Personally, I don't shoot in an environment where I can count every round with confidence.

You’re not reading what I’ve written.

Open the bolt.
Palm the round.
Leave it open.

Now - explain to me how it is possible to have a round in the chamber if you have one in your hand.

Whether you have no or 15 additional rounds in your mag is completely irrelevant.

 

[CarlW]

You’re not reading what I’ve written.

Open the bolt.
Palm the round.
Leave it open.

Now - explain to me how it is possible to have a round in the chamber if you have one in your hand.

Whether you have no or 15 additional rounds in your mag is completely irrelevant.

I have ammo in my pockets, in my magazine, in my belt, and in my bag. During or immediately after a high-stress situation, I am not going to assume that the round that happens to be in my hand is the round. I prefer to check.

 

[Mungo]

I have ammo in my pockets, in my magazine, in my belt, and in my bag. During or immediately after a high-stress situation, I am not going to assume that the round that happens to be in my hand is the round. I prefer to check.

Well ok then.

Though there is a world of difference between facing down a wounded buffalo in thick blackthorn and watching a muntjac quivering in the bluebells...