Rules for FAC air rifles.

[25 Sharps]

Are there any legal issues shooting up into branches or tree tops with fac air?

No more than with a 22LR or the like.

I wouldn't because sending lead into the air at however many FPS and not knowing where it's going to come down is not great, plus if you do hurt someone, goodbye to your FAC and quite possibly freedom.

Saying that, I have shot pests out of a tree with my sub12, but there always has been a hill/backstop there.

Less than 0.22 LR or the like, the like being and air rifle with slubs - the diablo pellet shape means that the pellet bleeds energy very quickly compared to a bullet, this means they will generally return to earth under gravity with little energy, a bit like a shotgun pellet, which are shot into the air all of the time.

Not saying you should get around without any consideration for where your pellet falls (especiallyas pellets are the only projectile that must legally stay within your boundary) but with a safe back box diablo pellets are inherently more safe than bullets.

 

[Bowland blades]

Are there any legal issues shooting up into branches or tree tops with fac air?

Only if you get it wrong ! Seriously , if you shoot up it will come down physics still applies but if you shot vertically up the bullet will come down pretty much vertically down under its own energy of falling so no great shakes ! At 45 degrees the bullet / pellet will curve down carrying a good deal more velocity / energy ! Shoot directly off a cliff downwards the bullet will carry far more energy .
FAC air up to say 30 ftlb in fairness is not a big issue with std weight pellets regards energy on landing shooting at a steep enough angle with a clear background .
As an aside a lot of folks have got hit by .22 rf at the 600 yard line on ranges thinking its only a 22 . If you think in terms of std airgun petters or there about and 30 ftlb muzzle energy think three as far as you might with 12ftlb ( as a general rule of thumb only )
Legally you own what you hit good or bad

 

[Bowland blades]

Are there any legal issues shooting up into branches or tree tops with fac air?

IN terms of what ? if you send it you own it ! Rules applies . If your unsure in the background don't shoot

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

A lot of posts ignoring the question.

Yes, you need to apply for a calibre specific air rifle slot and moderator if required.

I use a 32 ft-lb air rifle for ratting around the farm yard and calf sheds. Be aware of ricochet but other than that a much better tool for ratting.

Any decent sized rat needs a good brain shot to kill it humanely with a sub 12. With the .22 or .25 FAC at 30 ft-lb + body shots from any angle will be humane provided they go through heart and lungs . A much more effective and efficient tool.

The post was assuming FAC air was needed- or offered a meaningful advantage over sub 12- for rats. Which IMO it rarely does.

I also find well placed body shots very effective for rats. And a larger kill zone than the very small brain.

For rats I have found body shots in 177 nearly as quick as .22 as it happens. 177 is quite a lot less effective on squirrels, for example, IME.

 

[Sanglier 857]

I'm looking into getting an air rifle for ratting. I have a .22lr but am worried about ricochet etc so figured a air rifle would be more sensible.

I don't know much about the rules of buying an FAC air rifles, and all I can find online is that "you need an FAC"...well, sure, but are they like full bore rifles in that you need each specific calibre and how many you're able to own listed? Or is just having an FAC enough?

I have .22lr, .222, .223 and .308 on my ticket, so I'm sure I won't struggle to get a .22 FAC air rifle. Just want to know if it's necessary to get an alteration.

Cheers!

I have an FX Impact FAC with .22 and .30 calibre barrels, although it’s the actual rifle that’s FAC, I shoot heavy pellets through the .22 barrel and 44.5 grain slugs through the .30 cal barrel, for rats in buildings I think you’d be better with a good make sub 12 ft/lb air rifle, my .22 FAC shoots at 36ft/lb ( which is as low it can go for accuracy) which is bit much for some farm buildings

 

[25 Sharps]

The post was assuming FAC air was needed- or offered a meaningful advantage over sub 12- for rats. Which IMO it rarely does.

I also find well placed body shots very effective for rats. And a larger kill zone than the very small brain.

For rats I have found body shots in 177 nearly as quick as .22 as it happens. 177 is quite a lot less effective on squirrels, for example, IME.

I’ve done a lot of ratting with both, the FAC air gives no runners, I’d always take the FAC over the sub 12 other than against buildings or kit that can get damaged.

There’s no ‘nearly as quick’ with .22 FAC it’s just dead, instantly.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

I’ve done a lot of ratting with both, the FAC air gives no runners, I’d always take the FAC over the sub 12 other than against buildings or kit that can get damaged.

There’s no ‘nearly as quick’ with .22 FAC it’s just dead, instantly.

As a % of their size- any air gun pellet is an absolute monster. It must be equivalent to a human being hit with a bullet the size of a tin of baked beans or something.

I think I would prob usually take fac too given the choice. But is it worth the money and hassle? Not for me.

I would love a .25 FAC though!

 

[25 Sharps]

As a % of their size- any air gun pellet is an absolute monster. It must be equivalent to a human being hit with a bullet the size of a tin of baked beans or something.

I think I would prob usually take fac too given the choice. But is it worth the money and hassle? Not for me.

I would love a .25 FAC though!

Yes they will kill but not necessarily quickly.

If, like a lot of us, you have an FAC and PCP air rifles already, adding one on your FAC is no real hassle.

I suppose if you don’t, then a springer sub 12 is the least hassle and good enough to get the job done. A good night on the rats we’ll do 100-150, that’s a lot of cocking on a springer!

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Yes they will kill but not necessarily quickly.

If, like a lot of us, you have an FAC and PCP air rifles already, adding one on your FAC is no real hassle.

I suppose if you don’t, then a springer sub 12 is the least hassle and good enough to get the job done. A good night on the rats we’ll do 100-150, that’s a lot of cocking on a springer!

As i explained above I'm not a fan of springers for regular ratting.

In the brain I really think any air rifle pellet will kill a rat instantly. Some of them twitch and do the helicopter tail thing but they are clinically dead for sure. Even a 177 is a massive hole in something as small as a rat head. I think any air rifle pellet kills equally well here- but a bigger pellet probably reduces nerve reactions.

Chest shots are def a bit more complex. There's something to be said for depositing a lot of energy in an animal- which 22 pellet does better as its less likely to exit- and if it does it will exit with less energy.

For marginal shots- very close to the brain (or chest vitals) having the extra ft llbs of FAC prob does help. is this what you're referring to ? As does a larger calibre to deliver more energy which can help make up for placement a little.

I agree adding fac air isn't hard to acquire or incorporate. But running sub 12 is just less worry. I can leave it in the car (out of sight) all day and not worry. I can point it skyward in many situations. I can let friends play around etc.

I have used a number of sub 12 PCPs and rated them all for ratting. Big magazines are handy. Magazine system that allow low mounted scopes for bias towards sub 20 yard trajectory is handy. Decent reservoirs for 50-100 shots also handy.

I think a few extra ft lbs- especially in .22 or .25- would do no harm at all and on occasion be nicely desirable. I have used a 17 ft lb .22 for rats but didn't really notice much difference in outcome. The pellets exited more frequently though- and it was a bit louder.

I think fac prob really helps for large rat areas where 40-50 uard shots are needed. .22 or
25 with a nice flat trajectory and a range finding night vision must be devastating. I just don't do enough of it to justify such nice kit!

 

[25 Sharps]

For marginal shots- very close to the brain (or chest vitals) having the extra ft llbs of FAC prob does help. is this what you're referring to ?

I can shoot an 8” bodied rat in the back end and it will reach the heart and likely exit the head, that’s what I’m talking about. I can also head shoot rabbits at 70-80 yards, or in perfect conditions, further.

FAC air doesn’t have to be expensive, I have a modded superten, £180 for the rifle, £100 for a tune from Rancid Tom and £80 for a 400 CC bottle with the 200 traded against it which Tom fitted.

Gave me a 30-34 ft-lb .22 with single figure ES across a mag, 42 regulated shots and 10 useable after that.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

I can shoot an 8” bodied rat in the back end and it will reach the heart and likely exit the head, that’s what I’m talking about. I can also head shoot rabbits at 70-80 yards, or in perfect conditions, further.

FAC air doesn’t have to be expensive, I have a modded superten, £180 for the rifle, £100 for a tune from Rancid Tom and £80 for a 400 CC bottle with the 200 traded against it which Tom fitted.

Gave me a 30-34 ft-lb .22 with single figure ES across a mag, 42 regulated shots and 10 useable after that.

Ah ok interesting - texas heart shot on a rat eh ?! I certainly wouldn't try with sub 12!

I'm aware of how ridiculously accurate FAC air can be. Slugs bring them incredibly close to 22LR too and give options.

 

[25 Sharps]

Ah ok interesting - texas heart shot on a rat eh ?! I certainly wouldn't try with sub 12!

I'm aware of how ridiculously accurate FAC air can be. Slugs bring them incredibly close to 22LR too and give options.

Texas heart shots on rats, pigeons through the wings which you should never do with a sub 12 but my FAC punches in one side and out the other. It is a different ball game to sub 12.

They do, but I can’t really see the point (unless you don’t own a .22 lr, but I have 4) as the main benefit of the FAC air is the added safety factor of the lower energy and the fact Diablo pellets bleed energy far quicker and are therefore inherently safer.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Texas heart shots on rats, pigeons through the wings which you should never do with a sub 12 but my FAC punches in one side and out the other. It is a different ball game to sub 12.

They do, but I can’t really see the point (unless you don’t own a .22 lr, but I have 4) as the main benefit of the FAC air is the added safety factor of the lower energy and the fact Diablo pellets bleed energy far quicker and are therefore inherently safer.

I have never shot with an air rifle slug. But it strikes me that the better a low powered (compared to a powder burner anyway) air rifle can deposit its energy- the more effective it is at humanely killing quarry. Any pellet that exits an animal is wasted energy.

Slugs seem to expand so well- far more energy is deposited. Plus that expanded slug is more likely to nick a major blood vessel, organ or brain on its path- if shot placement is off.

Plus they have a better BC right? Must help for 70 yard rabbits in a slight breeze ?

I have found 177 exits really quite frequently.

 

[25 Sharps]

I have never shot with an air rifle slug. But it strikes me that the better a low powered (compared to a powder burner anyway) air rifle can deposit its energy- the more effective it is at humanely killing quarry. Any pellet that exits an animal is wasted energy.

Slugs seem to expand so well- far more energy is deposited. Plus that expanded slug is more likely to nick a major blood vessel, organ or brain on its path- if shot placement is off.

Plus they have a better BC right? Must help for 70 yard rabbits in a slight breeze ?

I have found 177 exits really quite frequently.

By that rationale we’d all be shooting deer with 1700 ft-lb rifles and varmint bullets.

Shot a roe with my 4000 ft-lb 300 PRC, I reckon 3500 ft-lb went into the hill behind the deer, it still died though…..

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

By that rationale we’d all be shooting deer with 1700 ft-lb rifles and varmint bullets.

Shot a roe with my 4000 ft-lb 300 PRC, I reckon 3500 ft-lb went into the hill behind the deer, it still died though…..

It's more complex than that. I won't pretend to fully understand it- but hydrostatic shock, tissue expansion with blood vessel rupture (often leading to "bang flop" I believe ?) occurs with fast bullets that- to my knowledge at least- doesn't occur at air rifle speeds.

Varmint bullets do actually put animals down quicker don't they, all other factors being equal. Although bullet exits speed up blood loss so are still desirable

The reason we like bullets that expand is so they can deposit more energy and cause more damage.

Air rifle pellets kill in a different way to super sonic bullets. Slugs probably kill in a similar way to pellets- but more effectively.

 

[25 Sharps]

It's more complex than that. I won't pretend to fully understand it- but hydrostatic shock, tissue expansion with blood vessel rupture (often leading to "bang flop" I believe ?) occurs with fast bullets that- to my knowledge at least- doesn't occur at air rifle speeds.

Varmint bullets do actually put animals down quicker don't they, all other factors being equal. Although bullet exits speed up blood loss so are still desirable

The reason we like bullets that expand is so they can deposit more energy and cause more damage.

Air rifle pellets kill in a different way to super sonic bullets. Slugs probably kill in a similar way to pellets- but more effectively.

The point I was making is the projectile doesn’t have to impart all of its energy to make a clean kill. An FAC has more energy and will cause more damage so will kill more effectively even if it exits.

Also, soft pellets like JSBs do actually expand at FAC air rifle velocities, particularly if you hit bone, so they impart a higher percentage of there energy than the same pellet that hasn’t expanded at sub 12 velocities.

Varmint bullets don’t always put animals down more quickly, they can expand too quickly and not reach the vitals. All of the energy is in the animal at this point but it can still be non fatal, or slowly fatal.

Bang flop is usually associated with disruption to the CNS rather than the terminal effects you mention.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

The point I was making is the projectile doesn’t have to impart all of its energy to make a clean kill. An FAC has more energy and will cause more damage so will kill more effectively even if it exits.

Also, soft pellets like JSBs do actually expand at FAC air rifle velocities, particularly if you hit bone, so they impart a higher percentage of there energy than the same pellet that hasn’t expanded at sub 12 velocities.

Varmint bullets don’t always put animals down more quickly, they can expand too quickly and not reach the vitals. All of the energy is in the animal at this point but it can still be non fatal, or slowly fatal.

Bang flop is usually associated with disruption to the CNS rather than the terminal effects you mention.

Yup good points.

I don't understand the physics of air rifle pellets. If a pellet enters an animal with 8 ft lbs of energy- and exits with 1 ft lb- it's deposited 7 ft lbs.

If the exact same pellet on the same quarry etc etc enters with 20 ft lbs- will it still deposit 7 ft lbs? Or more ? How does it deposit more? Pellets barely expand. A tiny tiny bit maybe.

How much do JSB pellets expand ? I can't say I have seen much expansion in retrieved pellets- even in 177- which are travelling at FAC speeds if it was .22

Yes agreed I have heard that too explosive a little round can blow up on the shoulder of an animal- although I have never seen it happen in truth.

Re bang flop- yes that's true actually I'm confusing my phrases.

 

[25 Sharps]

Yup good points.

I don't understand the physics of air rifle pellets. If a pellet enters an animal with 8 ft lbs of energy- and exits with 1 ft lb- it's deposited 7 ft lbs.

If the exact same pellet on the same quarry etc etc enters with 20 ft lbs- will it still deposit 7 ft lbs? Or more ? How does it deposit more? Pellets barely expand. A tiny tiny bit maybe.

How much do JSB pellets expand ? I can't say I have seen much expansion in retrieved pellets- even in 177- which are travelling at FAC speeds if it was .22

Yes agreed I have heard that too explosive a little round can blow up on the shoulder of an animal- although I have never seen it happen in truth.

Re bang flop- yes that's true actually I'm confusing my phrases.

.177 pellets don't generally travel at FAC speeds off ticket or they will reach FAC energy levels.

See post 151 on this thread, it should clarify how they expand and therefore impart more energy.

Post in thread 'Fac air is it worth it ?'

Dec 18, 2023

As for expansion, use a soft pellet at decent velocity and they do expand.

This is an air arms 18 gr leaving at 880 fps after going through a rabbit’s spine (neck). This is particularly good expansion but they all expand to some extent if hitting bone.

• 25 Sharps

• 

In terms of how a faster pellet transfers more energy, kinetic energy is determined by velocity, so the faster something is travelling the higher the proportion of its velocity it will lose when it hits the same solid/ semi solid object so it imparts more of its energy.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

.177 pellets don't generally travel at FAC speeds off ticket or they will reach FAC energy levels.

See post 151 on this thread, it should clarify how they expand and therefore impart more energy.

Post in thread 'Fac air is it worth it ?'

Dec 18, 2023

As for expansion, use a soft pellet at decent velocity and they do expand.

This is an air arms 18 gr leaving at 880 fps after going through a rabbit’s spine (neck). This is particularly good expansion but they all expand to some extent if hitting bone.

• 25 Sharps

• 

In terms of how a faster pellet transfers more energy, kinetic energy is determined by velocity, so the faster something is travelling the higher the proportion of its velocity it will lose when it hits the same solid/ semi solid object so it imparts more of its energy.

177 sub 12 is similar speeds to .22 at fac right? 700fps or so. Less momentum so I can believe that a pellet would perhaps expand better in fac form.

That's an incredibly impressive expansion. What does it expand do with a "normal" chest shot- hitting a rib ? Little I would think.

Indeed velocity contributes to kinetic energy - but what determines how much is transferred into an object ? Just because it starts with more energy- what determines how much it deposits (ignoring any pellet expansion).

I'm genuinely interested- but I don't see how a harder initial contact guarantees more energy is deposited ?

 

[25 Sharps]

177 sub 12 is similar speeds to .22 at fac right? 700fps or so. Less momentum so I can believe that a pellet would perhaps expand better in fac form.

That's an incredibly impressive expansion. What does it expand do with a "normal" chest shot- hitting a rib ? Little I would think.

Indeed velocity contributes to kinetic energy - but what determines how much is transferred into an object ? Just because it starts with more energy- what determines how much it deposits (ignoring any pellet expansion).

I'm genuinely interested- but I don't see how a harder initial contact guarantees more energy is deposited ?

FAC runs at around 850-925 fps for Diablo pellets, after that they become unstable.

Let me put it another way a pellet of the same mass will decelerate more hitting a solid object if it is travelling at a higher velocity. That deceleration is the energy transfer as that kinetic energy has only gone into the animal, nowhere else.

I’ve recovered plenty of pellets that have expanded well, the bigger the bone the better expansion.

I get the feeling you have zero experience with FAC air or what it is capable of, so you are working on assumptions based on what you have seen with your own sub 12.

I’ve shot thousands of rats and rabbits with both sub 12 and FAC air rifle. The FAC is a better tool for the job every day of the week provided there’s nothing behind that can get damaged.