Shooting deer at night

[nun_hunter]

Agree 100%. In parts of Scotland deer are being run to the edge of existence by greedy contractors with lamps. You would not believe how much these guys can earn. It's very sad stuff IMO, deer being treated like rabbits.

This is my main gripe with "stalking" in the uk, deer are held on some etheral pedestal to be treated in a certain ethical way above all other animals. It's fine to lamp rabbits and foxes but not deer, fine to use "vermin" as long range target practice but not deer (not saying this is your POV James). As Taff has pointed out it is how the landowner views the deer as to how they are dealt with. Some want them eradicated, some couldn't care less about their presence and other will encourage them due to their asthetic or financial value.

 

[JH83]

My point in earnest is that deer are quite easy to totally eradicate with a lamp, if one is inclined. Vermin species are not. My point also is that it is not often necessary to resort to these means with deer, unlike the other species mentioned. In Scotland it is not up to the landowner, the govt will send contractors to your land often with night licences to take care of deer if they perceive you have not.

 

[csl]

hello, im new to the forum just wanted to ask is it legal to shoot chinese water deer at night? the reason being im asking is cos i saw some pics on a forum recently of someone shooting them at night but i always thought this was illegal? are there some special circumstances where you are allowed to shoot them under darkness?

Hi, please can you post a proper introduction in the Introductions section. You will have received a private message from Admin asking you to do this and explaining how.

Regarding your query, I don't know what the photos you saw showed exactly but unless you can see lamps being used you can't deduce that deer were shot outside legal hours just from dark photos. If you shoot a deer at last light and take a photo shortly after, it can look pretty dark, especially using a phone camera/flash!

 

[countrryboy]

My point in earnest is that deer are quite easy to totally eradicate with a lamp, if one is inclined. Vermin species are not. My point also is that it is not often necessary to resort to these means with deer, unlike the other species mentioned. In Scotland it is not up to the landowner, the govt will send contractors to your land often with night licences to take care of deer if they perceive you have not.

It does not happen that often that contractors are sent onto someone elses land without their permission. I've certainly never heard of it down in southern scot, and even where the squads are sent in i'd be surprised if any go in without the landowners consent. It may be legal to do it but i would doubt it ever happens now (legal to do the same for rabbits or raggwort too if owners not contoling them, but i bet not ever carried out now)

It also depends on the species of deer ur trying to control (or in ur words eradicate) using the lamp, it is NOT easy to control all the species using a lamp and can actually make them harder to manage in the future. Deer are not daft, contary to wot many think they do not just stand there to be shot, go to any estate with a poaching problem and u soon see deer run the instant a lamp shines on them. No different to rabbits or foxes that get lamp nervous/shy
Like everything it will depend on the ground and numbers plus loads of other things


I do agree that they are handed out too often and many forestry managment companies rely on them to complete culls while not replacing/employing new rangers while trying to save money/increase profits.
The lamp should be the last resort and it definately has a place, but it is over used, mainly to save money by the bean counters in offices that have never seen a deer

 

[JH83]

It does not happen that often that contractors are sent onto someone elses land without their permission. I've certainly never heard of it down in southern scot, and even where the squads are sent in i'd be surprised if any go in without the landowners consent. It may be legal to do it but i would doubt it ever happens now (legal to do the same for rabbits or raggwort too if owners not contoling them, but i bet not ever carried out now)

It also depends on the species of deer ur trying to control (or in ur words eradicate) using the lamp, it is NOT easy to control all the species using a lamp and can actually make them harder to manage in the future. Deer are not daft, contary to wot many think they do not just stand there to be shot, go to any estate with a poaching problem and u soon see deer run the instant a lamp shines on them. No different to rabbits or foxes that get lamp nervous/shy
Like everything it will depend on the ground and numbers plus loads of other things


I do agree that they are handed out too often and many forestry managment companies rely on them to complete culls while not replacing/employing new rangers while trying to save money/increase profits.
The lamp should be the last resort and it definately has a place, but it is over used, mainly to save money by the bean counters in offices that have never seen a deer

Yeah I don't think southern Scotland is the issue, my experience of contractors and lamping is specific to the highlands. I'm not decrying all lamping of deer, but from personal experience what I have seen in the highlands isn't great at all, and very sad stuff. I am all for strict deer management but what I have seen does not fall into that bracket. I will leave it at that! All the best.

 

[6pointer]

Good post CB

 

[countrryboy]

There is probably as much lamping going on in southern scotland than there is in any other forested area of scotland, ie lots.

U mention contractors but in most cases there only shooting deer that would have been shot anyway but just fewer people are carrying out the cull, so it is deemed cheaper to hire them in rather than employ full time staff and everything that comes with it ie pension, holiday pay, motors etc, even the FT rangers are culling far more than they ever would 30 years ago.
Many rangers will be shooting 2 or 3 times wot they used to cull 30 years ago but will alos be covering 3 times the area and trying to do the work of 3 rangers.

Bottom line is it is sadly purely a numbers game now, wether it is contractors or FT employees very few deer will be left like they used too, too much preessure put on everyone to 'hit tatgets'.

 

[JH83]

I think you have summed it up well. I have little experience of S. Scotland. I stalk in N.Scotland and have seen it myself, places with good populations shot out in sub 12 months. It's a sad business.

 

[scotspine]

My point in earnest is that deer are quite easy to totally eradicate with a lamp, if one is inclined. Vermin species are not. My point also is that it is not often necessary to resort to these means with deer, unlike the other species mentioned. In Scotland it is not up to the landowner, the govt will send contractors to your land often with night licences to take care of deer if they perceive you have not.

The fact is that deer are equally easy to eradicate (from a locality) during the day, but it just takes more time. There are also areas that suffer from deer marauding specifically at night , hence the need for lamping.
I don't agree that lampers are lazy or greedy...I do a lot of control in forestry at night and it is way touhgher than daytime culling. You might not like it but it is a necessary evil.
Some landowners want to reduce deer numbers to a minimum, some don't....however I'm happy to let each set their own targets , taking into account the objectives they have set for their land

 

[JH83]

I get it. In specific times and places it is necessary-I agree with this (and always have). Used occasionally by professionals in the right circumstances as part of a wide arsenal of methods-nae problem! However I don't think anyone would wholeheartedly argue the point that it is far, far to commonplace, it seems the first option for many as opposed to the last, and seems part of a quite anti deer agenda from the powers that be, which is a scary thing. I would suggest that lamping is a far easier way of taking a quick heavy cull however, which is hard work due to the numbers of beasts involved I am sure. I have had my 10p's worth on this one.

 

[6pointer]

scots pine do you have a day job or are you just a deer lamper. Necessary Evil I don't think so I feel the lamp is a good tool and a dangerous one.If it becomes the norm and we are nearly there (New legislation getting thought about as we speak to help FES MEET TARGETS FOR THE VENISON INDUSTRY)Note not tree damage. Then we will see many more fatality's than we do with the fox lamping problems we will see many more poachers and the balance for deer need numbers male and female will be way off.
Can the deer be managed during the day in some cases YES so that makes SNH criminals in some cases and they know it. The sad thing is so do our big shooting organisations BASC BDS SGA SACS.

 

[Salmo Salar]

I have to agree with Scotspine here, in many circumstances when it comes to large tracts of thick forrestry it may well be the only tool to adequately manage the deer population. So there it is a necessary evil.
There are also cases though that it is used as its easier to get the required numbers to achieve a target possibly because of not enough visits during the day.

 

[Ranger22]

What nobody has mentioned is that forests are a commercial venture, other people work in the forest causing disturbance to the deer and making them turn nocturnal. If they turn to moving at night no day time stalker is going to be successful no matter how many trips they make per week.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

guys, how can you manage deer when you shoot them opportunistically under the lamp? you can only control them. I have night license and OOS and as 'tools' it does help keep the numbers down for less effort.

I think what Davie to trying to point out is that individuals and organisations are deliberately using the least amount of man hours/resources/budget to control deer through night shooting process rather that put day time effort in and dedicate resources and budget to this. In terms of the standards to meet the criteria for night authority such individuals and organisations must basically have tried all other options first. Is this happening? and just because you haven't the time, budget or will power to put the effort in to manage deer shouldn't then automatically mean a jump to night license. There are plenty of options that could be used before the lamp, are they being tried first, really?

 

[Yoda]

This is my main gripe with "stalking" in the uk, deer are held on some etheral pedestal to be treated in a certain ethical way above all other animals. It's fine to lamp rabbits and foxes but not deer, fine to use "vermin" as long range target practice but not deer (not saying this is your POV James). As Taff has pointed out it is how the landowner views the deer as to how they are dealt with. Some want them eradicated, some couldn't care less about their presence and other will encourage them due to their asthetic or financial value.[/QUOTE

Are Deer classed as Vermin now,
in England?

 

[rick6point5]

I do not have a problem with the method and understand the benefits & pitfalls, however I would like to know who is advising all these 'Landowners' that they have such a problem the lamp needs to be used prior to trying all other methods, I know a good number of folk who would jump at the chance to control such numbers during daylight hours and in fact be rather good at it and quite possible solve the so called problem.

 

[Yoda]

I do not have a problem with the method and understand the benefits & pitfalls, however I would like to know who is advising all these 'Landowners' that they have such a problem the lamp needs to be used prior to trying all other methods, I know a good number of folk who would jump at the chance to control such numbers during daylight hours and in fact be rather good at it and quite possible solve the so called problem.

Good points. I can't talk about Scotland or want to, but I know a lot of farmers and land owners who are human beings and don't want to exterminate certain animals. I can't believe some of the missguided comments on here about animals

 

[Taff]

Paul / Davie, businesses may well be using the least amount of labour, and resourses to control deer, do you do everything the most expensive way.
I do find what people call management of wild deer a bit of a mystery, and perhaps someone can explain the science behind it.
I manage flocks of sheep and herds of cattle , in the true form of management, we select all our replacement ewes, they have to have been born from twins , from top quality tups breed for there ability to throw animals of the right confirmation to what we are aiming for, etc etc, the same goes for cattle, with wild deer roaming over several shoots this cannot happen.
Yoda, deer are not classified as vermin, more to a fluke of history and nature, than any other reason, if it was not for there ability to taste nice , and there ability to be semi domesticated for deer hunting in past history, just like pheasants and partridge. They may well be classed as vermin, remember in some areas foxes were and still are held in high esteme as sporting animals, yet a lot of stalkers just see them as a moving target.

 

[JH83]

guys, how can you manage deer when you shoot them opportunistically under the lamp? you can only control them. I have night license and OOS and as 'tools' it does help keep the numbers down for less effort.

I think what Davie to trying to point out is that individuals and organisations are deliberately using the least amount of man hours/resources/budget to control deer through night shooting process rather that put day time effort in and dedicate resources and budget to this. In terms of the standards to meet the criteria for night authority such individuals and organisations must basically have tried all other options first. Is this happening? and just because you haven't the time, budget or will power to put the effort in to manage deer shouldn't then automatically mean a jump to night license. There are plenty of options that could be used before the lamp, are they being tried first, really?

+1. The point I was trying to make.

 

[bogtrotter]

The lamp is a useful tool in the deer managers tool box, its extremely useful at removing small groups of deer that can all be taken out at once, less so with larger groups in fact where large numbers of deer are concerned it can be counter productive as deer very quickly become lamp shy.

There is no doubt night shooting licences are being granted more readily than in the past, and personally I feel that the rules and safeguards if not being broken are at the very least being severley bent.

However one needs to remember that all commercial forestry companies are in the business
of producing trees not providing stalking, and as such deer numbers need to be kept to an absolute minimum, much lower than suits most stalkers, while FC and other forestry leases are readily available, from a stalking point of view private leases are often more productive and cost effective.

Some of us who were around thirty five forty years ago when there were big incentives to plant more and bigger plantations foretold what effects this could have deer management and future deer numbers, however nobody cared to listen then.

Taff, there is no great secret in managing deer , it's just about knowing what a given area of ground can hold and removing the correct percentage across the age spectrum of both sexes annually to maintain that number.
Any attempt to manage by selecting individual animals as breeding stock is doomed to failure, keep the quantity right age and sex wise and the quality will take care of itself.

Most commercial forestry enterprises are not interested in maintaining a balanced population , their interest understandably is to keep numbers low enough that damage is negligible.