soft point v ballistic tip

[User00040]

The only way to tell is to test them through your rifle.

Unless you are hunting wild boar, all UK deer fall under the 'thinned skinned' category, look for that designation when selecting ammunition/bullets.

Most of the time you will find that very little is to be gained by deviating from the 'standard' projectile weight of that chambering, 130 grain .270 Winchester bullets are case in point.

 

[Dave881]

the gun im getting is cloverleafing with 130 grain fedral fusion softpoints but from hearing/reading so many mixed reports on them im wondering am i better off changing to a more premium bullet like the sako 140 grain with the Sierra game head.. most shooting will be sub 200 meters and most shooting is head/neck with the occasional chest shot when the head/neck shot isnt on

Hi,
Been some interesting views and it is a very personal choice what you use, yes I think most expanding bullets will do the job but some may be a better choice than others.

With what you have said about your shooting I would personally not use a soft point, I don't feel a soft point has fast enough expansion for consistency when head or neck shooting. I also shoot head and neck within my own limits and will only use a ballistic tip for doing it, I use a nosler 125 grain from a 308 or a nosler 90 from 243, both of these work for me and I wouldn't change. I mainly use the 308 and have not had any problems with excessive meat damage when I need to chest shoot. I have however heard a story where a roe doe had been neck shot with a 150 grain soft point and the bullet had passed alongside the spine only drilling a small channel through the muscle, a few seconds after the shot the doe got up and started walking off, luckily the stalker was watching after the shot and immediately put her down but it made me think about my own stalking.

I don't know what you situation is for reloading but if you do load the nosler BTs are brilliant. If you are using factory loads I would recommend something that expands rapidly, maybe try the hornady super performance ammo with the SST bullets, I have tried these some years ago and they do expand very fast, not perfect for chest shots but very effective, would be good for neck and head shooting. Obviously this is based in your rifle shooting well with this ammo.

For me personally spending a bit more on the right ammo to do what I need is worth it as I know how bad it feels when it goes wrong.

Hope this helps,
Dave

 

[Woodsmoke]

the gun im getting is cloverleafing with 130 grain fedral fusion softpoints

I wouldn't even consider changing in that case

 

[Blobby159]

Just a bit of trivia: Some time ago I watched a video (which I cannot find again) that showed the effects of air on a soft nose bullet travelling around 3000fps. The video showed for the first time that the soft lead nose is wiped off by the air a millisecond after it leaves the barrel.
So it is superfluous to the whole business of ballistics and impact expansion etc.
If I ever find the article and video I'll post it.

That is quite an unsettling possibility methinks, but does tie in with that Hornady bullet tip replacement with a version of their polytip that doesn't melt off in flight due to the heat of air friction!!..

So our fast, lead tipped, softpoint bullets are already lighter than on the box BEFORE they interact with a deer sized target at medium to long range due to the heat of air friction melting off the tip???.. Again, unsettling!!

Would this not make softpoints unreliable for hunting purposes if used in potent cartridges?? I could not sensibly comment on how this would affect expansion on impact, but it is BOUND to have some affect for sure!??

Anybody any point of view based on evidence with this please? I bet I am not alone in my interest here....

ATB ..... and shoot safely

 

[Smellydog]

That is quite an unsettling possibility methinks, but does tie in with that Hornady bullet tip replacement with a version of their polytip that doesn't melt off in flight due to the heat of air friction!!..

So our fast, lead tipped, softpoint bullets are already lighter than on the box BEFORE they interact with a deer sized target at medium to long range due to the heat of air friction melting off the tip???.. Again, unsettling!!

Would this not make softpoints unreliable for hunting purposes if used in potent cartridges?? I could not sensibly comment on how this would affect expansion on impact, but it is BOUND to have some affect for sure!??

Anybody any point of view based on evidence with this please? I bet I am not alone in my interest here....

ATB ..... and shoot safely

I have recovered bullets that still retain the lead tip. It's an isolated case if even true.
If it happened all the time barrels would suffer terrible leading.

 

[hybridfiat]

I have recovered bullets that still retain the lead tip. It's an isolated case if even true.
If it happened all the time barrels would suffer terrible leading.

I agree I couldn't see how the tip was not lost in the barrel unless the temperature of the tip had to be raised sufficiently by air friction to allow it to be 'wiped' off. We know that supersonic aircraft get very hot. I still cannot find the article but it was accompanied by a video of the soft point smearing down the copper jacket time and time again. I think that velocity must have a big part to play. I'd like to see slow mo of a soft tip .22 Swift at 4000fps+.

Anyway the plastic tips work really well to increase length without affecting weight and therefore presumably their BC goes up and the tip causes fast reliable deformation of the bullet when it hits the target.

 

[Smellydog]

I agree I couldn't see how the tip was not lost in the barrel unless the temperature of the tip had to be raised sufficiently by air friction to allow it to be 'wiped' off. We know that supersonic aircraft get very hot. I still cannot find the article but it was accompanied by a video of the soft point smearing down the copper jacket time and time again. I think that velocity must have a big part to play. I'd like to see slow mo of a soft tip .22 Swift at 4000fps+.

Anyway the plastic tips work really well to increase length without affecting weight and therefore presumably their BC goes up and the tip causes fast reliable deformation of the bullet when it hits the target.

Plastic has a lower melting point than lead. If the point of a bullet gets hot enough to melt lead so will plastic!
A lead tip will also expand just as quick in tissue, there is no performance gain from a plastic tip there.
As for BC they will not turn a bullets flight into a laser like flatness. A famous writer from the 80's&90's, Ross Siegfried did a test at considerable distance (I think it was 400yards) where he produced loads of similar velocity but with a wide range of bullet shapes and all the same weight.
The difference over 400yds from the slickest to the flying brick shaped bullet was a mere 8" ! The majority IIRC of spritzer types and hollow points, boat tails and flat bases were all withing a few inches of drop between them. It was only a blunt round nose that fell 8".
Polymer tips are only really good at retaining shape whilst in a magazine of a heavy recoiling rifle, lead rounds can get flattened some but there have been tests run comparing a flattened lead tipped bullet verses an undamaged one and again there is really nothing lost in a hunting rifle to worry about
Polymer tipped bullets are also good at introducing yet more plastic waste into the enviorment.
Do I shoot polymer tipped bullets? Sure.
Do I shoot lead tipped? Sure.
Do I worry over what my choice is? No.

 

[Blobby159]

Agreed Mr.'Smellydog' Sir... At the more regularly encountered (closer) distances to quarry of the ranges 50->maybe 250 yards/meters whether the same weight and start out velocity bullets have lead or poly tips up front, and whether they are slightly damaged or not due to being buffeted about under recoil in the rifle magazine, the differences made to the point of impact on target will be quite minimal in the vertical dispersion sense anyways.

As to the melting off of the lead tips of softpoint projectiles I cannot see this happening to any appreciable extent (if it DOES occur that is) inside the barrel of the launch vehicle as the bullet needs to get up to an appreciably high speed FIRST before air temperature becomes hot enough, and over the length of the barrel the AVERAGE speed can only be approx. ONE HALF of that of the achieved muzzle velocity.. Yes?

And then, with the lead tip being a continuation of the whole lead core behind it, and with lead being a very conductive metal where heat is concerned, the heat sink effect of the mass of the whole projectile would counter the tip heat up to some extent at least I would assume, unlike those isolated poly-tips that are ALSO poor heat conductors if compared to the lead variety!!.? They would potentially heat up much faster and within the tip areas only too perhaps cos of their isolating material composition.

Thinking about this now with these considerations I would doubt that the melting off of the COMPLETE Lead Tip of a lead softpoint bullet happens much at all.. The launching velocity would have had to be quite high (say 3500 fps++ .. ??) AND REMAIN so for the majority of a fairly long flight time for this to even begin I would postulate... Remember, the heat source can ONLY be due to the compression and friction of the passing air of the bullet in flight once fired.

Also, the time involved probably isn't long enough to accumulate to where it will begin to melt the lead at the bullet tips. As a for instance I have just looked at the flight time of fastest bullet I have in my gun cabinet, the 20gr. Hornady V-Max as launched from my 23 & 1/2 " .17 Rem c/f barrelled Sako Vixen @ an average of something like 4,450fps.. Yes you read that correctly!!..

Even though it will slow up extremely quickly in comparison to more used rifle bullets in the larger, heavier, higher B.C.'d calibers like the plethora of .30s etc.. that tiny projectile is ONLY in the air (subjected to this frictional heating) for just ONE HALF SECOND till it reaches its 500 yard mark.. If the tip of a lead softpoint bullet is held in the direct flame of a Propane Torch for that same very limited length of time I doubt that the tip material will have been affected much, certainly not melted away, and this is with a DIRECT HEAT SOURCE playing on the tip lead material....

So in retrospect I am now of the opinion that the melting off of the whole tip of a fast moving lead tipped bullet is quite unlikely!!.
Note, NOT impossible, but highly unlikely!......

Well these are my thoughts on this subject now anyway.

ATB ...... and shoot safely.

 

[Smellydog]

Agreed Mr.'Smellydog' Sir... At the more regularly encountered (closer) distances to quarry of the ranges 50->maybe 250 yards/meters whether the same weight and start out velocity bullets have lead or poly tips up front, and whether they are slightly damaged or not due to being buffeted about under recoil in the rifle magazine, the differences made to the point of impact on target will be quite minimal in the vertical dispersion sense anyways.

As to the melting off of the lead tips of softpoint projectiles I cannot see this happening to any appreciable extent (if it DOES occur that is) inside the barrel of the launch vehicle as the bullet needs to get up to an appreciably high speed FIRST before air temperature becomes hot enough, and over the length of the barrel the AVERAGE speed can only be approx. ONE HALF of that of the achieved muzzle velocity.. Yes?

And then, with the lead tip being a continuation of the whole lead core behind it, and with lead being a very conductive metal where heat is concerned, the heat sink effect of the mass of the whole projectile would counter the tip heat up to some extent at least I would assume, unlike those isolated poly-tips that are ALSO poor heat conductors if compared to the lead variety!!.? They would potentially heat up much faster and within the tip areas only too perhaps cos of their isolating material composition.

Thinking about this now with these considerations I would doubt that the melting off of the COMPLETE Lead Tip of a lead softpoint bullet happens much at all.. The launching velocity would have had to be quite high (say 3500 fps++ .. ??) AND REMAIN so for the majority of a fairly long flight time for this to even begin I would postulate... Remember, the heat source can ONLY be due to the compression and friction of the passing air of the bullet in flight once fired.

Also, the time involved probably isn't long enough to accumulate to where it will begin to melt the lead at the bullet tips. As a for instance I have just looked at the flight time of fastest bullet I have in my gun cabinet, the 20gr. Hornady V-Max as launched from my 23 & 1/2 " barrelled Sako Vixen @ an average of something like 4,450fps.. Yes you read that correctly!!..

Even though it will slow up extremely quickly in comparison to more used rifle bullets in the larger, heavier, higher B.C.'d calibers like the plethora of .30s etc.. that tiny projectile is ONLY in the air (sunjected to this friction heating) for just ONE HALF SECOND till it reaches its 500 yard mark.. If the tip of a lead softpoint bullet is held in the direct flame of a Propane Torch for that same very limited length of time I doubt that the tip material will have been affected much, certainly not melted away, and this is with a DIRECT HEAT SOURCE playing on the tip lead material....

So in retrospect I am now of the opinion that the melting off of the whole tip of a fast moving lead tipped bullet is quite unlikely!!. Note, NOT impossible, but highly unlikely!......

Well these are my thoughts on this subject now anyway.

ATB ...... and shoot safely.

Excellent points.
Time is also a very important yet often missed factor in these concerns

 

[Ranger22]

Re Sika,if shot placement is good they fall over like any other deer. Regardless wether you use SP or BT.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Tips don’t cause expansion
Tips on frangible bullets do not increase frangibility (pull some vmax tips if you want to really see explosive frangibility)
Tips increase BC and sell bullets
Inside 300m the BC is largely irrelevant
Most recreational (or target for that matter!) stalkers can’t shoot well enough to demonstrate the BC advantage in either drop or drift.

The common misconception is you need BT to shoot head or neck effectively
You don’t
HP versions of standard SP bullets also work like VMax

On their own..They offer little or no significant advantage to a stalker

 

[Muir]

Tips don’t cause expansion
Tips on frangible bullets do not increase frangibility (pull some vmax tips if you want to really see explosive frangibility)
Tips increase BC and sell bullets
Inside 300m the BC is largely irrelevant
Most recreational (or target for that matter!) stalkers can’t shoot well enough to demonstrate the BC advantage in either drop or drift.

The common misconception is you need BT to shoot head or neck effectively
You don’t
HP versions of standard SP bullets also work like VMax

On their own..They offer little or no significant advantage to a stalker

So refreshing. Today's shooters seem to think that it is impossible to get a bullet from breech to beast without the use of a plastic tipped bullet, and if it doesn't have a boat tail your shot attempt is doubly cursed.
Does anybody but me remember where the name "Ballistic Tip" and the idea of putting a plastic tip on a bullet came from? and why they did it? Norma. Back in the 60's if I'm remembering correctly. THe tip was a little yellow plastic ball.~ Muir

 

[Blobby159]

Tips don’t cause expansion
Tips on frangible bullets do not increase frangibility (pull some vmax tips if you want to really see explosive frangibility)
Tips increase BC and sell bullets
Inside 300m the BC is largely irrelevant
Most recreational (or target for that matter!) stalkers can’t shoot well enough to demonstrate the BC advantage in either drop or drift.

The common misconception is you need BT to shoot head or neck effectively
You don’t
HP versions of standard SP bullets also work like VMax

On their own..They offer little or no significant advantage to a stalker

The one possibly good thing with poly tipped bullets is that they are pretty much all the same and generally don't get all bent outa shape by bouncing around in the magazine especially under tough and repeated recoil reactions.. This can help with consistency of drop at long range.

ATB ..... and shoot safely

 

[maxtheflyinghorse]

That’s a 150grain federal power shok soft point in .308 the buck was shot at 100 yards and it dropped on the spot ..that is what i call a text book expansion...im happy with the soft point as all my shooting will be in 200-250 yards max

 

[Namman]

So refreshing. Today's shooters seem to think that it is impossible to get a bullet from breech to beast without the use of a plastic tipped bullet, and if it doesn't have a boat tail your shot attempt is doubly cursed.
Does anybody but me remember where the name "Ballistic Tip" and the idea of putting a plastic tip on a bullet came from? and why they did it? Norma. Back in the 60's if I'm remembering correctly. THe tip was a little yellow plastic ball.~ Muir

Agree totally. One would think that deer these days are much harder to kill and hit properly than they were in years gone by. I am sure all these shiny new design bullets are, just like fisherman's floats and flies, designed to sell themselves.
Long live pro hunters, interlocks, hot cors, partitions ,power points and even ballistic tips!!

 

[Heym SR20]

The major difference between a conventional lead bullet and one with a ballistic tip is the extra £5 to £10 a box you pay for bullets.

a box of 100 Hornady 7mm 139g softpoints is £37, the SST with a plastic tip is £43.

Put them in the right place they do their job well, put em in the wrong they don’t.

And in terms of expansion and damage, more a function of impact velocity than anything else. And thats a function of choice of load and range and thats down to the driver.