Sudbury Butchers window display

[Klenchblaize]

The more one looks the more one realises the Best Practice minded stalker is something of a minority when it comes to what the Industry we are talking about is prepared to sanction and for the most part gets away with. My experience anyway.

With regard to the role stalkers with or without 'qualifications' have to play in soliciting change c/o presenting carcasses of a single quality that screams but one thing; namely pride, I just don't see our oft' fractured voice being loud enough.

K

 

[Tackleberry270]

But why should they have to do the course in the first place?? As kickthedug stated he's seen stalkers with plenty of paperwork who didn't have a clue!! So I hardly think having the course will cure all the ills in the stalking world ..... People who want to poach and break the rules will continue to do so because that's what they are like !

Because it is surley a step in the direction of accountability.

I have met a lot of stalkers and also have worked in a gun shop for a short period. I enjoy the company of fellow shooters/stalkers and I hate to make generalisations but a common trait of deer stalkers/firearm owners seems to be overconfidence/machoism and to a lesser or greater extent - arrogance. To admit that you have much to learn goes against all this! I think for those that fall into this category combined with the longer they have been stalking creates a barrier to the compulsory DSC1 idea. [Don tin hat and jump into shellscrape]

 

[Cut+Squirt]

I don't agree. My Dad did his DSC I/II in his late 70's after nearly 60 years of stalking. Some ten years later he's still stalking and learning about deer. Regards JCS

Thats what I call a life long stalker. . .I bet he could tell a few good stalking stories . .

 

[Cut+Squirt]

Is that a squirrel scampering along the rail upside down to the left of the "deer"?

Na its a polecat . . .

 

[jimbo1984]

Because it is surley a step in the direction of accountability. I have met a lot of stalkers and also have worked in a gun shop for a short period. I enjoy the company of fellow shooters/stalkers and I hate to make generalisations but a common trait of deer stalkers/firearm owners seems to be overconfidence/machoism and to a lesser or greater extent - arrogance. To admit that you have much to learn goes against all this! I think for those that fall into this category combined with the longer they have been stalking creates a barrier to the compulsory DSC1 idea. [Don tin hat and jump into shellscrape]

We all have a lot to learn ! As stated before we never stop learning and there's always something new to find out bu not necessarily from the dsc level 1. I know a lot of lads have learnt a lot from that course and that's great , but fr me it was a lot of expense for little gained , I'm not being arrogant I'm still a novice but I just don't feel like I learnt that much new , sorry I'm just being honest

 

[Monkey Spanker]

I agree you never stop learning about deer however that dsc course is not the be all and end all , sorry to offend anybody but I have a pros talker as a good mate who showed me the ropes and in that sense I'm very lucky do whe I got to the level 1 course I didn't take that much away from it

We all have a lot to learn ! As stated before we never stop learning and there's always something new to find out bu not necessarily from the dsc level 1. I know a lot of lads have learnt a lot from that course and that's great , but fr me it was a lot of expense for little gained , I'm not being arrogant I'm still a novice but I just don't feel like I learnt that much new , sorry I'm just being honest

You should consider yourself very lucky mate to have someone of that level to mentor you, but what if you didn't have him? Most people don't have that luxury and the DSC 1 might be their only inroad into the world of stalking. For several days of instruction and assessment it is very good value for money when you compare it to similar courses in industry. It enables the less fortunate to get their own rifle which is a major hurdle these days.
You say you didn't take much away from it? You now have a recognised qualification and a Large Game Handling certificate which allows you to sell deer legally to a Game Dealer. I suspect you also learnt stuff about the six species of deer which you didn't know before. Why did you do it and what more did you expect out of interest?
MS

 

[Taff]

I don,t know how we ever shot deer before DSC came along. I shoot deer I don,t hold them in anymore regard than foxes or rabbits and nowhere near as high as the noble squirrel. Apart from the legal seasons for each species, and how to identify suitability for entry to the food chain what do I need. For all people's talk about culling plans on here, not many have enough acerage to carry this out, I know with two 1000 acre plots I don't. I have nothing against people learning about deer but that is that there choice, a safety shooting test is what it should be about.

 

[Monkey Spanker]

I don,t know how we ever shot deer before DSC came along. I shoot deer I don,t hold them in anymore regard than foxes or rabbits and nowhere near as high as the noble squirrel. Apart from the legal seasons for each species, and how to identify suitability for entry to the food chain what do I need. For all people's talk about culling plans on here, not many have enough acerage to carry this out, I know with two 1000 acre plots I don't. I have nothing against people learning about deer but that is that there choice, a safety shooting test is what it should be about.

Where did you learn these skills though Taff? Where did you acquire your large game handling certificate?
MS

 

[Monkey Spanker]

I have another issue with the photo. From the details in post #1 it was presumably taken a number of hours after it was shot, and rigor would have started to wear off then (as it is generally reckoned to be at a height around 12 hours after death). Given the angle the head is at, even if the photo was taken less than 12 hours after death, I would have thought the weight of the head would have pulled it down by then, even if some rigor remained.

Rigor Mortis set in within a few hours of death. It is at a maximum stiffness as you say at about 12 hours, but it lasts for about 72 hours total gradually reducing until that point. Deer that cool in carcass trays or other hunched positions never really regain straightness even when suspended. This is why hanging by the Aitch bone is not ideal as the haunch meat sets at the wrong angle to be butchered well. It is also why it is better to skin animals whilst either still warm or after hanging for at least 3 days!
MS

 

[jimbo1984]

You should consider yourself very lucky mate to have someone of that level to mentor you, but what if you didn't have him? Most people don't have that luxury and the DSC 1 might be their only inroad into the world of stalking. For several days of instruction and assessment it is very good value for money when you compare it to similar courses in industry. It enables the less fortunate to get their own rifle which is a major hurdle these days.
You say you didn't take much away from it? You now have a recognised qualification and a Large Game Handling certificate which allows you to sell deer legally to a Game Dealer. I suspect you also learnt stuff about the six species of deer which you didn't know before. Why did you do it and what more did you expect out of interest?
MS

I agree that I am very lucky to have a friend who is as experianced as he is and also got me my permission , and yes if I didn't the level one would be part of my inroad into the sport however that isn't the case is it ! Yes I learnt abit about Cwd avd sika as I've never been into contact with either species however nearly 600 pounds worth of learning ? Not really , and I did the course because I was after a forestry commission lease however I got a couple if farms of permission instead .
atb Jim

 

[jimbo1984]

I should like to point out that I know I'm lucky to have the advantages avd inroads into stalking that I've had and I can't thank mymy friends enough for that , however my main issue is that sometimes experianced stalkers are being pressured into taking these courses avd in that Sense to me it feels like a money making scheme a little , as to somebody coming into the stalking world brand new yes I see the course as a Definate advantage

 

[Toxster]

Looks like Skippy...Sure it's dead?

 

[Taff]

I learn,t to skin, gralloch etc off a slaughter man in the farm yard, I got my large and small game off the NGO , and I learn,t to stalk/hunt all game by experience with and without a gun, not on a two day course. I have nothing against the dsc courses after all we all have to make a living, but don,t make out they would prevent pictures like this appearing.

 

[Monkey Spanker]

I learn,t to skin, gralloch etc off a slaughter man in the farm yard, I got my large and small game off the NGO , and I learn,t to stalk/hunt all game by experience with and without a gun, not on a two day course. I have nothing against the dsc courses after all we all have to make a living, but don,t make out they would prevent pictures like this appearing.

No, you are right mate. I actually much prefer the mentoring method which you had in various forms. The current trend is that FAC will only be granted for deer if either mentoring or DSC 1 is taken. This I think is good, as it at least ensures that a beginner gets some kind of guidance and appreciation of both safety and legal requirements.
But.... pictures like this will only appear if there are outlets. If there is a demand, then there will always be a supply to meet it. We should all be making sure that the supply is legitimate. We also need to ensure that the demanders only receive a legitimate supply to protect ourselves.
MS

 

[jimbo1984]

I learn,t to skin, gralloch etc off a slaughter man in the farm yard, I got my large and small game off the NGO , and I learn,t to stalk/hunt all game by experience with and without a gun, not on a two day course. I have nothing against the dsc courses after all we all have to make a living, but don,t make out they would prevent pictures like this appearing.

Basically exactly what I was trying to say but failed a d said much better than I ever could!

 

[Tackleberry270]

I learn,t to skin, gralloch etc off a slaughter man in the farm yard, I got my large and small game off the NGO , and I learn,t to stalk/hunt all game by experience with and without a gun, not on a two day course. I have nothing against the dsc courses after all we all have to make a living, but don,t make out they would prevent pictures like this appearing.

You don't get very far nowadays without qualifications and/or certificates to show you have studied what you are practicing. There is no guarantee that you are learning correctly from someone else in a mentoring situation or just missing out on important information. Someone has to set an agreed standard from which more knowledge can be built on. Anyone putting venison into the food chain should be accountable and should meet this standard. We are being very short sighted if we think all will be fine in the future if we are not proactive on this. As has been said, if a stalker already has the experience then they can just turn up and take the test. Its not a money making exercise, its moving with the times and giving the wider public a confidence in us that they may not have if all we can say is 'I'm self taught but done it for a long time' or 'I learnt from an experienced mate'.

 

[Taff]

it is a money making exercise, people do it for a living, not out of the goodness of there hearts, why charge to witness stalks, it's a day out in the countryside is it not. As to public confidence this is as fickle as the wind.

 

[Deerstalkermark]

it is a money making exercise, people do it for a living, not out of the goodness of there hearts, why charge to witness stalks, it's a day out in the countryside is it not. As to public confidence this is as fickle as the wind.

The BDS does it out of the goodness of their hearts. The helpers and committee members all do it voluntarily as it's a charity.
I've got a mate who's a top surgeon. For years he's been teaching me all he knows but they still won't let me operate without the bit of paper he has.
DSC is an attempt to set a standard, a bench mark for a recognised level of achievement within an industry and is no more of a money making excercise than doing a degree.
If you just shoot a few deer for your own freezer then fine but if you intend to work in the industry and sell on carcasses GET QUALIFIED
I'm proud of my DSC1 & 2, they're both framed and hang on my office wall.

 

[Paul 600]

it is a money making exercise, people do it for a living, not out of the goodness of there hearts, why charge to witness stalks, it's a day out in the countryside is it not. As to public confidence this is as fickle as the wind.

Whos mentioned charging for witnessed stalks? I don't but what if I did? Why should my time writing and doing your level 2 be free? Do you get paid to go to work or do you do it for free? Time is money.

when people drink drive it's very clear cut, they are either over the limit or there not. If testing were compulsory for deer stalking it would make enforcing the law much easier and straight forward as you have taken a test that includes laws etc making it very similar to drink driving.

if you care about deer and deer welfare should you not be qualified and show your commitment?

 

[Klenchblaize]

I shoot deer I don,t hold them in anymore regard than foxes or rabbits and nowhere near as high as the noble squirrel.

This is a truly great site!

First it sires "The UK Hornet Rifle Owners Club" and now "Fraternity* Squirrel Nobel La Chase". (*Note: Pine Marten will tidy this up.)

With you all the way on this one Taff but pity they're such buggers to skin!

Cheers

K