Which .223 rifle?

[MarinePMI]

I see a lot of people recommending Rem 700's of some flavor or another.

Personally speaking, I'd actually not recommend a Rem 700 these days. While the design and popularity used to be topnotch and high (respectively), the bottom line is that they are an old design that hasn't been kept up to current manufacturing tolerances. There are just too many other well made rifles out there today, to really consider a 700 a top contender.

Will a 700 work? Sure. Assuming you end up with a good one. But there's a lot of not-so-good ones out there, that require a lot of things addressed (like primary extraction for example; many many 700's are out there with hosed up PE). They function, they just don't function as they were designed to. I won't even address the triggers.

If you get a stunning deal on one, it could be a good basis for a custom rifle. Or it could be a nightmare with uneven bolt lug engagement, screwed up primary extraction, improperly soldered on bolt handle, and (God forbid) have barrel tenon threads out of spec that has been epoxied into the receiver (and yes, I have seen a few of these).

Ask yourself this: If a 700 requires a gunsmith to fit a chambered barrel to the action, and actions like a Tikka T-3 or Bergara do not, what does that say about Remington's tolerances? Or, put the other way, what does that say about these newer rifles' tolerances and manufacturing techniques? And the ability of their manufacturers to hold those tight tolerances.

The 700 is ubiquitous. I get it. But that ship has sailed, and the sun is slowly setting...much like the company itself.

The recent QC issues with Savage are also suspect these days, but that is another discussion altogether....

 

[JTO]

Gave this a bump so you could find it in classifieds ukv . View attachment 325118

I have no connection with the advertiser , thought it might fit the bill .

Paul is an SD member.
I have a 284W that I bought from him, no problems!

 

[User00044]

Paul is an SD member.
I have a 284W that I bought from him, no problems!

It looks beautifully put together and well thought out . If it were my money and I were in the market I wouldn't hesitate .

 

[Eagleeye]

I am surprised no one has mentioned CZ 527.

 

[User00044]

I am surprised no one has mentioned CZ 527.

If you go fast twist for longer heavier bullets then you need a longer barrel to optimise velocity , especially as you extend the range . I think the later 527s were a 1 in 9 , not fast enough for 80 grainers . Just my opinion .

I'm a CZ527 fan , the one in my photo is a semi custom built on a 527 action .

 

[Eagleeye]

Is there massive difference between 1:8 and 1:9?

 

[User00044]

Is there massive difference between 1:8 and 1:9?

1 in 9 can be marginal on 69grain TMKs , it's the length not the weight . I'm not a target shooter , if I were I'd be looking 1 in 8 or faster and possibly a 30 inch barrel to achieve better velocities with heavier , high bc bullets . A lot depends on discipline , range and whether you intend on using it for other purposes , then you have to compromise . Carrying a 30 inch barrelled rifle around when foxing would be a ball ache to say the least .
@caberslash , I think , was trying to steer you in the right direction so you bought what you needed from the start , rather than wasting money on something that's not quite fit for purpose. It can run very expensive if you have to rebarrel, etc .
There are people on here, far better qualified than me , to advise you on the target side of things . For example, Laurie competed for some time with a 223 I believe and has encyclopedic knowledge on the topic .

 

[6.5-06 TIKKA]

I shot 69gr smk, 75gr hornady amax and 70gr Berger vld with a Remington 700 PSS.....a 1 in 9 twist........25moa 5 shot groups with homeloads all the way out to 600m.
Go 1 in 8 if you want to shoot 77gr smk and above.

 

[Eagleeye]

1 in 9 can be marginal on 69grain TMKs , it's the length not the weight . I'm not a target shooter , if I were I'd be looking 1 in 8 or faster and possibly a 30 inch barrel to achieve better velocities with heavier , high bc bullets . A lot depends on discipline , range and whether you intend on using it for other purposes , then you have to compromise . Carrying a 30 inch barrelled rifle around when foxing would be a ball ache to say the least .
@caberslash , I think , was trying to steer you in the right direction so you bought what you needed from the start , rather than wasting money on something that's not quite fit for purpose. It can run very expensive if you have to rebarrel, etc .
There are people on here, far better qualified than me , to advise you on the target side of things . For example, Laurie competed for some time with a 223 I believe and has encyclopedic knowledge on the topic .

I appreciate your detailed answer.

 

[Eagleeye]

I shot 69gr smk, 75gr hornady amax and 70gr Berger vld with a Remington 700 PSS.....a 1 in 9 twist........25moa 5 shot groups with homeloads all the way out to 600m.
Go 1 in 8 if you want to shoot 77gr smk and above.

I appreciate your detailed answer.

 

[JTO]

All depends on how competitive you would like to be.

I'll say it again!

 

[User00044]

I shot 69gr smk, 75gr hornady amax and 70gr Berger vld with a Remington 700 PSS.....a 1 in 9 twist........25moa 5 shot groups with homeloads all the way out to 600m.
Go 1 in 8 if you want to shoot 77gr smk and above.

I did say "can be " though I should have perhaps added to "can be marginal in short barrels" . My 22" barrel doesn't quite achieve the velocities to be optimal with the TMK s , I've some Nosler 69grain CC to try theyre a touch shorter, when I find time .

 

[jthyttin]

1-9" barrel from one manufacturer might be actually 1-8.75" and another from other manufacturer 1-9.25". That's about 10% difference. And somebody might shoot at sea level, while another is thousands of meters above (especially if you try to dig info from US forums).

Usual rule of thumb is that in standard conditions at sea level, traditional 69gr BTHP designs will stabilize in 1-9", 75gr BTHP from Hornady being the heaviest (do not mix with other 75gr designs). Hornady might be marginal in barrels shorter than 20", and in cold weather. Higher elevation means less dense air and helps in stabilization.

75gr A-Max is no more (replaced by ELD-M), and like said if you have specific bullet you'd like to use try to dig out the length and compare to the bullets mentioned. Velocity plays a minor role when stabilization is marginal, so in addition to barrel length the load you're using has some effect.

 

[BenBhoy]

expert opinion

 

[Eagleeye]

 

[Bowland blades]

I was wondering if you guys can give me your expert opinion on my first .223 rifle.
Rifle will be used for target shooting only, must be accurate with a light trigger pull.

Will be grateful for your opinions.

As long as you are not speaking of multi - shot being required i should say a single shot action at the top of its class as regards to weight with a heavy barrel and fast twist rate if your speaking proper target shooting not sunday mornings on the local 100 yard rage .
Specifics then to suit the event you want to shoot targets wise , Like if your shooting Mc Queens your going to need a mag fed not a single shot etc etc
Just for fun or for just getting into the different evens as cheap and effective as possible ? A tikka as un-fettled tikka rifles off the peg are rarely not capable , i would likely buy a heavy barrelled laminate stock as they are the best to improve further with a good bedding job , the newer ones come with picatinny rails

 

[6.5-06 TIKKA]

As JTO said, how deep are your pockets and get as much information from active shooters and gunsmiths.
Single shot target rifle to heavy barrel varmint types.....

 

[HSB]

No expert but the kimber on here looks good for what you want, I have one in 243 and it's better then me!

 

[Eagleeye]

No expert but the kimber on here looks good for what you want, I have one in 243 and it's better then me!

 

[User00040]

I see a lot of people recommending Rem 700's of some flavor or another.

Personally speaking, I'd actually not recommend a Rem 700 these days. While the design and popularity used to be topnotch and high (respectively), the bottom line is that they are an old design that hasn't been kept up to current manufacturing tolerances. There are just too many other well made rifles out there today, to really consider a 700 a top contender.

Will a 700 work? Sure. Assuming you end up with a good one. But there's a lot of not-so-good ones out there, that require a lot of things addressed (like primary extraction for example; many many 700's are out there with hosed up PE). They function, they just don't function as they were designed to. I won't even address the triggers.

If you get a stunning deal on one, it could be a good basis for a custom rifle. Or it could be a nightmare with uneven bolt lug engagement, screwed up primary extraction, improperly soldered on bolt handle, and (God forbid) have barrel tenon threads out of spec that has been epoxied into the receiver (and yes, I have seen a few of these).

Ask yourself this: If a 700 requires a gunsmith to fit a chambered barrel to the action, and actions like a Tikka T-3 or Bergara do not, what does that say about Remington's tolerances? Or, put the other way, what does that say about these newer rifles' tolerances and manufacturing techniques? And the ability of their manufacturers to hold those tight tolerances.

The 700 is ubiquitous. I get it. But that ship has sailed, and the sun is slowly setting...much like the company itself.

The recent QC issues with Savage are also suspect these days, but that is another discussion altogether....

But but but... they are what the M40 and M24 are built from, how could you be so mean!

Truth be told, Rem never put a fast-enought-twist barrel on the 700, think the fastest was 1-9" from the factory.

Benefit is that you can pick the older (1980's-early 2000's) models up for around £100-300 now in the UK, so they can be a fun (and expensive) project to build off.