Which shotgun made in England should I choose?

[Mr. Gain]

Very comprehensive summary. Thank you.

I often get asked by people if they can use this or that steel shot cartridge out of their old shotgun.
My reply usually lays out the regular recommendations (i.e. no more than 3.2mm from thighter than 1/2 choke). Then I tell them that shotguns that are officially not fit for high velocity steel shot are hardly marketable anyway. So what‘s there to loose? I tell them to shoot whatever they like.. If the gun doesn’t survive, nothing is really lost in terms of value and they can still buy a new shotgun when/if this happens.

Except of course it would be a real pity to damage, let alone ruin, a hand-built one-hundred-and-fifty-year-old gun for the sake of trying to get a few extra yards of range to miss at. Those vintage boxlocks may be in surplus now, but future generations will thank us for treating them gently.

Standard steel loads seem to present no problems in vintage guns, other than ballistic inefficiency compared to lead.

It is HP steel that should only be used in suitably proofed guns. It exists to give lead-like performance when a degree of reach is required, because the only way to get steel to strike hard enough at 45 yards is to give it a much stouter kick in the breech.

 

[suburban bushwacker]

Hi!

Can't find it...?
SKU number or serial number?

I'm 6' with arms like a orangutan...

ring Ed or message him through this site. he’s got so much stock he couldn’t possibly post it all. pm me if you need assistance

 

[NorHunt]

ring Ed or message him through this site. he’s got so much stock he couldn’t possibly post it all. pm me if you need assistance

Hi!
I sent a mail today with my interest.

 

[Steff]

Those vintage boxlocks may be in surplus now, but future generations will thank us for treating them gently.

Will they? Museum curators maybe. Our own folks will hardly care if the ole‘ gun on the wall still works or not.

 

[Greenmist]

Theres a little gun shop in Oxforshire which iirc @Heym SR20 wrote about a while back, that had a good stock of English guns, personally I've always regretted not buying a Pape live pigeon gun for give away price years ago

 

[Heym SR20]

Theres a little gun shop in Oxforshire which iirc @Heym SR20 wrote about a while back, that had a good stock of English guns, personally I've always regretted not buying a Pape live pigeon gun for give away price years ago

Side-by-Side Shotguns | Francis Lovel & Co Ltd

www.francislovel.com

But @Edinburgh Rifles carry a very good stock of good British built guns. As Ed alluded to above, there were many many British gunmakers.

At one point most market towns had a good gunsmith / gun shop. Bigger towns and cities had several. They were all supported by the “trade” which made all the key parts as rough forgings, right up to fully completed guns and all stages in between.

Gunsmiths would buy in component parts. Some would just buy in blocks and tubes of steel and would then build guns with basic machines, chisels and files. Others were basically retailers buying in fully completed guns which carried their name.

British Guns are principally in two major types :

Boxlocks - these are simple actions, with 4 principal parts on each side. Better quality boxlocks are a really good buy. If properly made they are pretty indestructible, and if they do go wrong they are simple enough to fix.

Sidelocks - these are the upper end of the market. Much more refined, better trigger pulls, better balanced etc., but more expensive to put right if they go wrong.

Key point on all British guns is that they were pretty much all hand built, or even if production built (Webley etc) parts will all be hand fitted. If a part breaks you will need a gunsmith with the skills and experience who can repair it. Such skills are becoming rarer these days, and those that do can dictate their own price.

Also note that there is a huge variation in styles, barrel lengths, balance, weight etc. Equally note that there are huge differences in opinion as to what is best.

No reason why you cannot have a huge amount of fun shooting clays with older side by sides. Just use a light cartridge of the correct chamber length. Barrels do get hot - just let them cool and take your time. Best to shoot with friends.

Side by sides all have their own souls and it can take time to find one which talks to you. When you do find a soulmate, never let it go.

 

[Heym SR20]

Lots of background reading

Read The Vintage Gun Journal by Vintage Guns

The Vintage Gun Journal is a free on-line monthly magazine for enthusiats for British sporting guns.

www.vintageguns.co.uk

THE SHOTGUN — Simon Reinhold

simonreinhold.co.uk

Michael McIntosh - Sporting Classics Daily

sportingclassicsdaily.com

About Us -

Graham Mackinlay & Co is a traditional Scottish gun firm, established in 2002 by Graham Mackinlay in Strathleven House, a beautiful Palladian mansion house close to the shores of Loch Lomond in Scotland. The business was previously known as Glasgow Gun Makers from Great Western Road, Glasgow...

www.gmackinlay.com

Donald Dallas – Author of Books on The History of British Sporting Guns and Rifles

The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com - Forums powered by UBB.threads - they used to publish the Double Gun Journal which is a very fine journal dedicated to fine and double guns. Sadly they stopped it a few years ago. The forum is still active, but not particularly active.

https://huntershouse.dk/files/webley-scoot/webley-scott-katalog.pdf

Well worth spending time looking through. This is a catalogue to the trade dated 1914. You will see many many different guns built by them, but mostly finished and sold by multiple different makers.

And not forgetting

HOLTS Auctioneers

This is fantastic resource to look at many different guns.

And go to YouTube and search TGS and Holts. There is huge back catalogue looking at all sorts of guns and good guidance on what to look for. Yes the are ultimately promoting Holts as an Auction house, but there is a huge amount of information of lots of different guns. Latest video.

 

[NorHunt]

Loads.
We specialise in named boxlocks from England and Scotland

Starting around the £6-700 mark for Branded "trade guns" - tend to be Dickson, Martin, Fraser, Allan, Ingram, Dougall etc but built on Birmingham actions (usually Webley&Scott)
The geniune "built" named guns tend to be significantly finer with much more ornate and highcoverage engraving, ornate fences, sculpted actions/levers etc (Martin, Dougall, Ingram, Holland, Cogswell, Dickson, Denton, Holloway, Hellis, Henry, Harkom etc)
These run from High hundreds into low thousands

All usually 2 1/2" with 28-32" barrels, chokes vary massively from cyl/cyl through full/full and everything inbetween

Don't confuse "Nitro Proof" with "Can't use steel"
We carry four brands of standard performance, 2 1/2", steel cartridges for clay and game that can be used in ANY Nitro Prooved gun.

As an aside.....
We are about to prove the choke issue is a non issue with a test barrel covered in strain guages from breech to muzzle
I intend to demonstrate what I believe to be true

The pressure drop from breech to muzzle is significant - measured by Winchester in the 70s - and published in numerous other places thereafter
Winchester W-W lab data on three different 12 ga factory loads

• 0.36T - 700 psi @ 26"
• 0.27T - 620 psi @ 28"
• 0. 27T 605 psi @ 29".

Article in the (UK) The Journal of The Forensic Science Soc. - Auth. Victor Drake
Units Brit Long Ton (2240#/T) Radial Lead Crusher Method (One Long Ton per Square inch = 2,240 psi)

• Max 2.8T @1" from breech
• 2.5T @6" from breech (5600 psi)
• 0.5T @14" (1120 psi
• 0.25T@20" (560psi)
• 0.1T @30" (224psi)

Burrard The Modern Shotgun , Ch. Pressure

• 2.8T@1"
• 0.36T@20"
• 0.2 T@30"

The steel is travelling in a cup of plastic or "biowad" contruction usually at least 0.5-0.75mm thick - RADIALLY 1-1.5mm as a diameter measurement
The contriction of the bore to a full choke is 0.035" or 0.889mm
I am not convinced that the compression of relatively soft plastic/synthetic twce the thickness of the constriction of the choke of the is significant enough or restricts the repacking of the shot in the cup to drive muzzle pressures high enough with a full choke to be of structural concern

But we will see!!

Thank you for the list of brands that are on the low end and the high end of the market.
It makes it much easier for me to choose.
I will have a look at your webpage.

 

[Smellydog]

Loads.
We specialise in named boxlocks from England and Scotland

Starting around the £6-700 mark for Branded "trade guns" - tend to be Dickson, Martin, Fraser, Allan, Ingram, Dougall etc but built on Birmingham actions (usually Webley&Scott)
The geniune "built" named guns tend to be significantly finer with much more ornate and highcoverage engraving, ornate fences, sculpted actions/levers etc (Martin, Dougall, Ingram, Holland, Cogswell, Dickson, Denton, Holloway, Hellis, Henry, Harkom etc)
These run from High hundreds into low thousands

All usually 2 1/2" with 28-32" barrels, chokes vary massively from cyl/cyl through full/full and everything inbetween

Don't confuse "Nitro Proof" with "Can't use steel"
We carry four brands of standard performance, 2 1/2", steel cartridges for clay and game that can be used in ANY Nitro Prooved gun.

As an aside.....
We are about to prove the choke issue is a non issue with a test barrel covered in strain guages from breech to muzzle
I intend to demonstrate what I believe to be true

The pressure drop from breech to muzzle is significant - measured by Winchester in the 70s - and published in numerous other places thereafter
Winchester W-W lab data on three different 12 ga factory loads

• 0.36T - 700 psi @ 26"
• 0.27T - 620 psi @ 28"
• 0. 27T 605 psi @ 29".

Article in the (UK) The Journal of The Forensic Science Soc. - Auth. Victor Drake
Units Brit Long Ton (2240#/T) Radial Lead Crusher Method (One Long Ton per Square inch = 2,240 psi)

• Max 2.8T @1" from breech
• 2.5T @6" from breech (5600 psi)
• 0.5T @14" (1120 psi
• 0.25T@20" (560psi)
• 0.1T @30" (224psi)

Burrard The Modern Shotgun , Ch. Pressure

• 2.8T@1"
• 0.36T@20"
• 0.2 T@30"

The steel is travelling in a cup of plastic or "biowad" contruction usually at least 0.5-0.75mm thick - RADIALLY 1-1.5mm as a diameter measurement
The contriction of the bore to a full choke is 0.035" or 0.889mm
I am not convinced that the compression of relatively soft plastic/synthetic twce the thickness of the constriction of the choke of the is significant enough or restricts the repacking of the shot in the cup to drive muzzle pressures high enough with a full choke to be of structural concern

But we will see!!

You are forgetting the velocity of the hard shot. It's nothing to do with pressures at the muzzle. By the time the shot is at the chokes it has huge kinetic energy but as it is nearly as hard as the barrel wall there is an opportunity to deform both shot and barrel steel. It's the plastic wad that yields but it can only yield to a finite energy value.

One may get away with shooting steel through tight chokes and indeed some manufacturers allow such but one day it will score the choke. Does it matter? Personally I don't think so but someone may.

Oh I nearly forgot, don't bother replying, like normal...