Why are we shooting less and less

[EssexBigMac]

Land banking and the older generations inability to share. When they go, the permission goes and it’s a lot of effort for the land owner to find or trust someone new unless introduced.
One man having the rights to 10,000-15,000acres dotted across the country will never be managed correctly unless he has a team of stalkers. It could be shared with a local syndicate who can do some real conservation efforts.
The majority of us are into country pursuits as they have been passed down from our elders, grandfathers or friends. Very few are in it off their own back without any previous history.
I have shown, coached, mentored and converted many into the industry as otherwise it will die out and we will all loose.
I truly believe others should take newbies under their wing and show them the ropes for the good of the industry.
Shooting shows, meet ups, training courses are all great ways of meeting like minded people who turn out to be great friends /colleagues.

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

Land banking and the older generations inability to share. When they go, the permission goes and it’s a lot of effort for the land owner to find or trust someone new unless introduced.
One man having the rights to 10,000-15,000acres dotted across the country will never be managed correctly unless he has a team of stalkers. It could be shared with a local syndicate who can do some real conservation efforts.
The majority of us are into country pursuits as they have been passed down from our elders, grandfathers or friends. Very few are in it off their own back without any previous history.
I have shown, coached, mentored and converted many into the industry as otherwise it will die out and we will all loose.
I truly believe others should take newbies under their wing and show them the ropes for the good of the industry.
Shooting shows, meet ups, training courses are all great ways of meeting like minded people who turn out to be great friends /colleagues.

There are 2 sides to that story, yes there are those with a lot of acreage but have you considered the fact that. They are gaining it because there are those show say yes can do and really they can’t, so those that can swallow it up and get on.

How do you know they can’t manage?

At one point in my stalking career I had written permission over 45,000 acres, I was stalking when ever I wasn’t working and I was getting round along with others.

I know a member of this forum just gained another 350 acres recently, because the original stalker wasn’t doing the job.

So please stop the jealousy and greed speech it really does wear thin.

Have you also considered that the young don’t actually want to shoot and kill animals?

 

[Rhodesianjess]

@south-nofolk-stalker must agree with you on the job being done properly point. I get "pimped out" by my boss here, someone will mention that they're having trouble and the boss always volunteers my service normally a stalker or syndicate in place on the other estate or farm but not doing the job that the owner/estate manager wants.
One place recently adjacent to a very large forestry planting, the resident stalker was only shooting fallow bucks, despite being asked to take does to get numbers down. Nose very much out of joint when told that I'd be in to knock does over if he can't do it,get help but that never seemed to occur to him.
People want all the land but don't do as asked so others brought in. If he'd mentored someone the way I have with underkeeprs, then the situation would be under control and a newbie would be given a chance.
We're our own worst enemies sometimes.

 

[EssexBigMac]

There are 2 sides to that story, yes there are those with a lot of acreage but have you considered the fact that. They are gaining it because there are those show say yes can do and really they can’t, so those that can swallow it up and get on.

How do you know they can’t manage?

At one point in my stalking career I had written permission over 45,000 acres, I was stalking when ever I wasn’t working and I was getting round along with others.

I know a member of this forum just gained another 350 acres recently, because the original stalker wasn’t doing the job.

So please stop the jealousy and greed speech it really does wear thin.

Have you also considered that the young don’t actually want to shoot and kill animals?

I agree with your initial point, my neighbour is always moaning about deer numbers although only allows his friend from the midlands to stalk and then he moans that he only comes twice a season.

Although no jealousy here I have private land. I just believe the future needs to change if we are to survive. BASC , BDS and the likes need to do mentoring / apprenticeship schemes with experienced stalkers. We as a community need to show/teach the youth of today what we do to get into the country pursuits. Not a once a year show days on a fancy estate but real life experience with stalkers/ fishermen with lots of dates and availability etc.

The youth of today love it more than their grandfathers and you and I. They just need to be given the opportunity and someone to show them the ropes.

You sound like you are competent and manage your land just fine. However the press and from what I am seeing with large fallow heards around the south east we definitely all need to do more. Fact or fiction? UK deer numbers are higher than ever - at 2 million

Think about what is the alternative? Rewilding wolves , sterilisation , chemical repellent spray (I’ve seen advertised), all have been proposed and closer to reality then any of us like to believe. I prefer my venison 99% organic, thanks

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

@south-nofolk-stalker must agree with you on the job being done properly point. I get "pimped out" by my boss here, someone will mention that they're having trouble and the boss always volunteers my service normally a stalker or syndicate in place on the other estate or farm but not doing the job that the owner/estate manager wants.
One place recently adjacent to a very large forestry planting, the resident stalker was only shooting fallow bucks, despite being asked to take does to get numbers down. Nose very much out of joint when told that I'd be in to knock does over if he can't do it,get help but that never seemed to occur to him.
People want all the land but don't do as asked so others brought in. If he'd mentored someone the way I have with underkeeprs, then the situation would be under control and a newbie would be given a chance.
We're our own worst enemies sometimes.

Exactly my point, had a friend message me earlier about a new bit of kit they’ve got they said to me are you still stalking? Still time to go on the red deer?

I replied Hicks to the red deer, my season starts in November not interested in shooting bucks or doors or stags!

Racks been there done that polished the turd type get some work!

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

I agree with your initial point, my neighbour is always moaning about deer numbers although only allows his friend from the midlands to stalk and then he moans that he only comes twice a season.

Although no jealousy here I have private land. I just believe the future needs to change if we are to survive. BASC , BDS and the likes need to do mentoring / apprenticeship schemes with experienced stalkers. We as a community need to show/teach the youth of today what we do to get into the country pursuits. Not a once a year show days on a fancy estate but real life experience with stalkers/ fishermen with lots of dates and availability etc.

The youth of today love it more than their grandfathers and you and I. They just need to be given the opportunity and someone to show them the ropes.

You sound like you are competent and manage your land just fine. However the press and from what I am seeing with large fallow heards around the south east we definitely all need to do more. Fact or fiction? UK deer numbers are higher than ever - at 2 million

Think about what is the alternative? Rewilding wolves , sterilisation , chemical repellent spray (I’ve seen advertised), all have been proposed and closer to reality then any of us like to believe. I prefer my venison 99% organic, thanks

My time is nearly up, I’ve more than killed my quota, I’ve given over 2000 acres away to trusted friends (they can 100% do!)

Let’s speak frankly how many people on this website bearing in mind there are 30,000 members can actually get on with the job?

And I mean GET ON WITH IT?

handful at most be honest?

To manage the Deer population now in the UK killers are required not the stalkers, killers, people who will shoot mercilessly and keep going until the mag is empty reload and shoot another mag full and be prepared to sling the carcasses in hole or skip, not get excited about punching paper and chasing the clover leaf, or the Fred is in a shed who are shooting one or two Muntjac or roe a week, I’m talking about how many people could actually kill herd species wholesale!

I’ve been a killer and it’s not a pretty business, never has been and this is the problem of the modern day deer stalker they like the he ideology of it, want the antlers and the popular social media posts etc but don’t actually want to do the work.

I’m glad to be near the end, I’ve got maybe 1 or 2 more seasons then sell up I’ve had a gut full.

 

[Apthorpe]

My pennies worth. For most of my career I have been working with innovative companies, in particular funding them and getting them into early customers.

Fundamentally the UK has no interest in investing for the future or developing new technologies. Staff are viewed as a costly embuggerance to be got rid of if at all possible. Indeed much better to get of them all and use contractors instead. As for investing in developing new technologies for the future wealth creation - this is bloody hard to do and the vast majority of good ideas end up being acquired by overseas investors and companies.

20 years ago we had many innovative wind technologies - did we invest in the industry. Not at all. It all ended up in the hands of Vestas (Denmark) and Seimans (Germany) and their wind turbines fill up our mountains, grouse moors and shallow seas. We haven’t even got involved in the development- mostly in the likes of EDF using their own contractors.

The gun trade was always a few large conglomerates- Webley and Scott and BSA with a whole series of specialists. Italy and Spain were the same. But likes of the Beretta and Rizzini familes had the foresight to invest in new machinery, in particular CNC. This has allowed them to make high quality hand finished products with the requirement for lots of labour.

In the UK a lot of the very successful engineering companies are long gone. Certainly up here in Scotland. Most of them ended up in third and fourth generations of their families, all of whom required dividends

...to pay their tax bills....

at the expense of investment. They ended not being able to compete with companies elsewhere. You can only milk a cow for so long and then it dries up and dies.

Absolutely correct.

And if you don’t invest for the future you have no more cows to milk.

And these days capital is free to move and has gone elsewhere.

As for the cost of fine guns, these are and always have been discretionary purchases. The Scottish guntrade was there due to wealth from trade and industry in Scotland. A handmade gun is similar to a Ferrari, or a bespoke yacht etc. They are a thing of beauty that you take pride in. But to build the fine guns you need a base of basic gunmaking to produce the basic components and more importantly to develop the skills of the youngsters.

These are good points. As a society, the consensus is that we want to be a welfare state. Once everybody is paying the high taxes and high borrowing required for that, then the capital which used to fund investment has been frittered away on the "here and now" of welfare. Yes, the UK did once lead the world in manufacturing and developing new industries, and we did so by having a large working class with very little welfare, along with a fairly steep gradient which many people were able to climb. That ended because voters, especially those from the demographics which used to benefit from those industries, wanted it to end, and now there is very little gradient. The large majority of workers NEVER get promoted nor acquire significant levels of new skills throughout the whole of their careers. That is largely not the fault of their employers. Companies don't set the rules of the game, they just play by or exploit the rules.


Other countries are now doing much better in those industries because the UK population doesn't want to. Instead they want high-welfare stagnation. Armies of people are on or near minimum wage jobs, yet are being overpaid for the value of their work.

 

[Pine Marten]

A very thought provoking article, and to think that UK gunsmiths did most of the invention in the guntrade.

Why are we shooting and fishing less?

In recent years, the decline in shotgun licence holders is alarming to say the least It’s a similar story in

www.hortonguns.com

That's not really an article, most of it is a stream of consciousness rant about everything that the author thinks is wrong with society, the country, young people today, young people yesterday, and then there's that strange non-point about Brunel never having considered menstruation, which has nothing to do with anything.

BUT I think that the simplest answers are, as often, the most pertinent: people shoot less because of lack of access and affordability. The point about fieldsports specifically often being a closed shop has always been the case, it's why people talk about being "from a shooting background", and in the end it's about access to land and its usage (and yes, it's a finite resource, it's just a matter of how you decide to use it). But in the UK land use is essentially still feudal, it's just that many of the landlords are actually companies rather than dukes. The point is that you can't just decide to have a go at shooting, either target or game, very easily. What's the entry point for a young person today? As @dunwater and @stevec have said, you need cash, transport and helpful parents or other adults with the time and means to provide these. There aren't many rifle ranges and most of them are very restrictive, require serious commitment. It's not even straighforward to go and do a round of clays anymore, especially without an SGC.

If I just go from personal experience, having grown up in the Big City and always wanted to hunt, the only shooting I could really do until my late teens was air rifle plinking in my grandmother's little garden. At home, there was no outdoor or indoor space to do this. I read lots of books and magazines about shooting (pre-internet), which recommended I do things like offer my services as a beater at the local shoot and befriend farmers for the chance of some pigeon or rabbit shooting. None of those things were relevant. And I couldn't travel anywhere either. Applying for an SGC was pretty easy, really, it's just admin to navigate, and then I bought a shotgun, and then for two years didn't use it as I had nowhere to do so. No clay grounds round here, no car. At university I was finally able to join a rifle club and shot targets and clays regularly. That option no longer exists: the sports centre was subsequently demolished and rebuilt without a rifle range. Club disappeared. The same happened to pretty much all the other London ranges. So several decades later, the only place I have to go and practice rifle shooting is Bisley, at the BSRC, and that's a half day commitment and 2-3 hour return trip in the car. It's not open over the Christmas holidays. And the NRA are in the process of turfing my club out anyway to use the land more profitably. Clays are easier, 20 minutes down the road and even accessible on public transport. But these days, a couple of rounds of skeet etc sets me back about £, I can't do it that often.

I'm not complaining, I've worked out how to fit enough shooting/hunting into my life, but it's taken 30 years to arrive at this state and not a little sheer bloody-mindedness. I'm not sure if I was 15 now the obstacles would be surmountable.

Just for the record, people back then broadly knew nothing of/disapproved of shooting. The form has changed but not the underlying trend.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

...to pay their tax bills....

Absolutely correct.

These are good points. As a society, the consensus is that we want to be a welfare state. Once everybody is paying the high taxes and high borrowing required for that, then the capital which used to fund investment has been frittered away on the "here and now" of welfare. Yes, the UK did once lead the world in manufacturing and developing new industries, and we did so by having a large working class with very little welfare, along with a fairly steep gradient which many people were able to climb. That ended because voters, especially those from the demographics which used to benefit from those industries, wanted it to end, and now there is very little gradient. The large majority of workers NEVER get promoted nor acquire significant levels of new skills throughout the whole of their careers. That is largely not the fault of their employers. Companies don't set the rules of the game, they just play by or exploit the rules.


Other countries are now doing much better in those industries because the UK population doesn't want to. Instead they want high-welfare stagnation. Armies of people are on or near minimum wage jobs, yet are being overpaid for the value of their work.

The UK did once lead the world in manufacturing and developing new industries, and we did so by having a large working class with very little welfare,
My mum did a 48 hour week in a factory with no sick pay so she was never off sick. The ethic of keeping yourself was different back then in the 1950-60s you paid the rent before even food, now I am organising an eviction again for some young entitleds that my daughter rented a house to I bet they have Sky etc.

 

[Nickb]

There are too many variables and one of them is where you live.
Accessibility to land can be just about impossible in some parts of the country and much easier in others.
Also the mindset of the individual, for example I started shooting at 17 years old as nobody in my family shot.
I started beating on local shoots and asked every single person I met about opportunities. I was soon out rabbitting, ferretting and lamping all the time.
Networking is key and asking everybody for permission, at one stage between me and a mate we had too much permission but never complained.
Now I have a lot less , as people come and go and you realise quality over quantity is better.
We have enough now to keep me busy including deer, foxes , rabbits , game , pigeon shooting.
Another factor is family life and work , years ago seemed to have much more time.
Also when you have shot for 40 years the keenness sometimes is not as great as in my youth , I still go out as much as possible but sometimes just cant be bothered.

 

[Maran14]

An interesting article!

I’m 29 and have had my license for coming up to a year. I’m not naive enough to call myself young or foolish enough not to realise I’m at least half the age of some shooters! So where I fit in, I’m not sure.

Growing up, the only person I knew that did any shooting was ‘the rabbit man next door’ - so named after a group of kids saw him sling a dead rabbit on his car roof to get the guns out the back.

When I was 16, he took me to the range and showed me how to mount a scope on an air rifle. He spent the next few hours teaching me how to zero and shoot.
Not long after, he passed away. But he had planted the seed and I was hooked.

Now with a HMR and 223, it’s been bloody hard work finding permissions near me and even harder putting in the hours around work and family to prove myself to the land owner and be recommended to others.

Would I have benefited from some guidance from an experienced shooter - massively.
Would I still benefit - absolutely.

I think the biggest problem the ‘new generation’ of shooters face is their own lack of patience and work ethic. If they really wanted to do it, they’d make it happen, as I did.

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

An interesting article!

I’m 29 and have had my license for coming up to a year. I’m not naive enough to call myself young or foolish enough not to realise I’m at least half the age of some shooters! So where I fit in, I’m not sure.

Growing up, the only person I knew that did any shooting was ‘the rabbit man next door’ - so named after a group of kids saw him sling a dead rabbit on his car roof to get the guns out the back.

When I was 16, he took me to the range and showed me how to mount a scope on an air rifle. He spent the next few hours teaching me how to zero and shoot.
Not long after, he passed away. But he had planted the seed and I was hooked.

Now with a HMR and 223, it’s been bloody hard work finding permissions near me and even harder putting in the hours around work and family to prove myself to the land owner and be recommended to others.

Would I have benefited from some guidance from an experienced shooter - massively.
Would I still benefit - absolutely.

I think the biggest problem the ‘new generation’ of shooters face is their own lack of patience and work ethic. If they really wanted to do it, they’d make it happen, as I did.

Work ethic- now there sir is key!

Good luck to you, if you’ve got the work ethic, you will succeed!

 

[SussexSteve]

Need to shoot twice as many now as we did a few years back to cover costs

 

[Nickb]

Work ethic- now there sir is key!

Good luck to you, if you’ve got the work ethic, you will succeed!

Yep ,you need to get out there and put yourself about.
Try , try and try again and you will get there.

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

Need to shoot twice as many now as we did a few years back to cover costs

Forget covering costs, that went out the window years ago

 

[sikamalc]

My time is nearly up, I’ve more than killed my quota, I’ve given over 2000 acres away to trusted friends (they can 100% do!)

Let’s speak frankly how many people on this website bearing in mind there are 30,000 members can actually get on with the job?

And I mean GET ON WITH IT?

handful at most be honest?

To manage the Deer population now in the UK killers are required not the stalkers, killers, people who will shoot mercilessly and keep going until the mag is empty reload and shoot another mag full and be prepared to sling the carcasses in hole or skip, not get excited about punching paper and chasing the clover leaf, or the Fred is in a shed who are shooting one or two Muntjac or roe a week, I’m talking about how many people could actually kill herd species wholesale!

I’ve been a killer and it’s not a pretty business, never has been and this is the problem of the modern day deer stalker they like the he ideology of it, want the antlers and the popular social media posts etc but don’t actually want to do the work.

I’m glad to be near the end, I’ve got maybe 1 or 2 more seasons then sell up I’ve had a gut full.

Bloody hell Lee, is there not a hole in that drum of yours yet!!

 

[Bo Diddley]

He is only half right in what he says.
Yes I agree the organisations do not help. But then, when would I ever have the money to pay for a bespoke rifle. Mass produced (generalisation here) is better than bespoke. A machine can consistently reproduce an accurate part over and over again at a fraction of the price. Yes bespoke can fettle it to make a good rifle better.
Nobody takes on young people to train. Why would they? First, you have to find someone who wants to learn for a number of years and will not pack up and stack shelf’s because he gets more money and all his mates are there. Then you have to invest 20 or 30k a year in them.
Nobody wants to take on someone, spend the money training them for them to leave, halfway through training or worse still, train them up and they decide to leave for another company who will pay them a pound an hour more.
There is no tax incentive for any business to take on apprentices. That is the way of the world across all industry.

Attitudes have changed towards shooting, so many people live in cities and have no concept of where their meat comes from and, ( I kid you not) there was a court case where someone was shot dead, he had been running around with a revolver. Relatives were heard to complain that the police didnt need to shoot him, they could have shot the gun out of his hand. Who has been watching too many westerns?

Large shoots are seen by many as unethical and only for rich people, having seen the cost of a day on the pheasants, I have to agree. Way out of my budget.

Then there is the woke society,where banks will close your account because you are a gunshop etc etc etc.

And finally….. have you ever seen how difficult it is to get land to shoot on? Get someone to take you out on land? It is nigh on impossible. Why would you buy a rifle or shotgun if you have nowhere to shoot? It has taken me years to get the land I have, I regularly take people out to show them how to shoot, to give them a start. I have just helped a someone local to get a spot with some rabbits and pigeons but jeez, everyone guards their land and many will not entertain taking anyone out. Sometimes for the right reasons. But if we do not bring on the young, then, it will get smaller and smaller.

Spot on sir.

 

[Bo Diddley]

Oh well after reading this thread I'll be listing following in the classifieds... nice clean Tikka... lovely Anschutz... workhorse Browning... delightful little Berreta... super accurate FX Crown... and a nearly collectable cult .177 BSA .. In the words of Private James Frazer... We're Doomed

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

Bloody hell Lee, is there not a hole in that drum of yours yet!!

Apologies malc but at what point have I not said any thats not the truth?

Others don’t want to say it, but I will.

 

[StephenToast]

Bloody hell Lee, is there not a hole in that drum of yours yet!!

Don't cancel him again. He's one of the few on here that make any sense.