Will it stop (Red Deer Season Change)

[Mungo]

There would have been absolutely zero mental health, ethical or moral issues to have taken her as part of the management plan had the female season restrictions not been in place.

There is a faint possibility that she’d already given birth.

This is where opponents to extending the female season have a stronger case: as you get into May, the risk of leaving orphans grows.

The SGA would have done a lot better to focus on this rather than the entirely transparent mental health ploy.

They could have done so using hard data on the distribution of birth dates, which shows that roe deer can start giving birth now.

That they chose to use a much weaker and subjective argument indicates again that they’re not evidence driven.

 

[@theroedeerguy]

Angular body shape
No visible udder despite being observed from a variety of angles at close range.
Coat pretty much into summer.
Thin neck

There was a stronger possibility that she hadn’t given birth but I appreciate that there’s still a faint chance.

 

[HonestJohn]

There may well be a political intention to the law changes. But that doesn’t negate the fact that what they have done is exactly what so many people on here constantly demand: they have removed regulations and placed decision making in the hands of the landowners.

So - strip away your political distaste. Can you really say you object to being given GREATER freedom to decide what to do on your own land?

Yes, because it will be abused at the detriment of the deer population balance. Why? Because people pay rents for stalking so want as much as they can get, and moreover, because people in Scotland generally are at very low or even negative disposable incomes, so the opportunity to monetize deer takes over from moral principles to those of survival

 

[Jon P]

A lot of the trouble with excessive deer numbers is vast parcels of land being held by one person that are only interested in selling the trophy animals off and not culling enough females.

 

[Mungo]

Yes, because it will be abused at the detriment of the deer population balance. Why? Because people pay rents for stalking so want as much as they can get, and moreover, because people in Scotland generally are at very low or even negative disposable incomes, so the opportunity to monetize deer takes over from moral principles to those of survival

So you’re in favour of greater regulation ‘for the greater good’?

 

[HonestJohn]

A lot of the trouble with excessive deer numbers is vast parcels of land being held by one person that are only interested in selling the trophy animals off and not culling enough females.

And lack of outlet for carcasses. I have a friend who owns 10k acres in Scotland, he refuses to cull deer and the population is growing hard - reason being he sees them as an estate asset and is waiting for venison prices to come back to £2.40/kg before culling - otherwise it’s a waste.

Now if the government would subsidize privately culled deer so there was a minimum guaranteed price per KG, these situations would not occur either

 

[HonestJohn]

So you’re in favour of greater regulation ‘for the greater good’?

No, but it’s about realising that whilst lesser regulations are lovely to have, they will be subject to abuse. Its like saying that there should be no laws and total freedom on the basis that people are naturally good- but it doesn’t work like that - sadly the rotten apples spoil the whole damn bunch.

Adam and Eve - temptation.

 

[Jon P]

And lack of outlet for carcasses. I have a friend who owns 10k acres in Scotland, he refuses to cull deer and the population is growing hard - reason being he sees them as an estate asset and is waiting for venison prices to come back to £2.40/kg before culling - otherwise it’s a waste.

Now if the government would subsidize privately culled deer so there was a minimum guaranteed price per KG, these situations would not occur either

I was in a conversation a while ago- 50,000 acres and 500 deer being removed annually. That is not sustainable to reduce deer numbers.

 

[Tim.243]

South of the Border isn't the discussion.

Nor is the SNP mess but that fills the tv radio internet more than Red Deer
@south-nofolk-stalker
I say change the season (down south) back a month (Oct) as all have been born and are grazing.

 

[chriswjx]

A lot of the trouble with excessive deer numbers is vast parcels of land being held by one person that are only interested in selling the trophy animals off and not culling enough females.

Mind seeing a lad on Facebook trying to sell "last minute stalking availability" in the final week of March (roe does), because he was struggling to make the cull target. Didn't suggest that he was offering it at a discounted rate either...

 

[VSS]

Yes, because it will be abused at the detriment of the deer population balance. Why? Because people pay rents for stalking so want as much as they can get, and moreover, because people in Scotland generally are at very low or even negative disposable incomes, so the opportunity to monetize deer takes over from moral principles to those of survival

So what SGA et al actually need to be doing is encouraging their members to act wisely and responsibly within the proposed new legislative framework.
Their current stance (and the same applies to other organisations in this debate) just makes them appear hypocritical and ignorant.

 

[David Barker]

Don’t see a problem personally, wish they would do it south of the border

Why how would our deer laws help you. We have more deer now than we have ever had and culling with disregard for season has been happening for near 20 years.

 

[Rake Aboot]

Scottish government doesn’t want anyone visiting Scotland to pay to hunt , simple.
Eradicate what they can using professional hunters and leave as little as possible available for recreational/paid hunting.

 

[David Barker]

It’s silly.

Quite possibly for the wrong reason, the government has actually done something most people on here constantly demand: they’ve removed some rules and essentially said ‘it’s your land, you decide’.

And then the SGA hangs part of their argument on mental health grounds?? That’s pathetic. You can’t one day get upset that you can’t use snares, and the next claim that shooting pregnant deer is traumatic. People might start to suspect that you’re just making it up as you go along to suit yourself.

I have used snares many times over the years. But i have never felt the need to open up the vixens i snared something i would rather not do. I fully support the stance SGA are making. The Scottish government through there advisors have totally made a F up of deer management. None thinkers in FLS hoping that if they through Tax payers cash at the problem it would get fixed. Sadly it didn't work . So lets normalise night shooting , Didn't work. Lets open up shooting of males and use electrical Didn't work. Now its lets fec k about with the female season the money hungry amongst the stalkers (KILLERS ) Will do anything for a bit of cash. Will it work no. My feeling is if this goes through the deer managers north of Stirling will refuse to shoot deer. Were will that leave us. The lowland public land managers have refused to shoot there deer with out any action by government. England be carful what you wish for.

 

[Tim.243]

I have used snares many times over the years. But i have never felt the need to open up the vixens i snared something i would rather not do. I fully support the stance SGA are making. The Scottish government through there advisors have totally made a F up of deer management. None thinkers in FLS hoping that if they through Tax payers cash at the problem it would get fixed. Sadly it didn't work . So lets normalise night shooting , Didn't work. Lets open up shooting of males and use electrical Didn't work. Now its lets fec k about with the female season the money hungry amongst the stalkers (KILLERS ) Will do anything for a bit of cash. Will it work no. My feeling is if this goes through the deer managers north of Stirling will refuse to shoot deer. Were will that leave us. The lowland public land managers have refused to shoot there deer with out any action by government. England be carful what you wish for.

I think all these discussions will GET you no where (ever), Down South apart from a tweak to the seasons (4-6 weeks) for me personally there are enough deer who have no season, no Roe/CWD on my grounds (thank God) some lumpy reds from time to time also a decent amount of Fallow.....
Far more important things going on that need addressing in the country which affects all the non stalkers apart from a few deer.
Take your blinkers off
Food
Fuel
Costs
Housing
And the rest of the list...

 

[Mungo]

I have used snares many times over the years. But i have never felt the need to open up the vixens i snared something i would rather not do.

So what you're saying is that killing something by relatively slow strangulation doesn't bother you, but finding dead fetuses inside a deer does?

Do you see why people aren't convinced?

 

[David Barker]

There may well be a political intention to the law changes. But that doesn’t negate the fact that what they have done is exactly what so many people on here constantly demand: they have removed regulations and placed decision making in the hands of the landowners.

So - strip away your political distaste. Can you really say you object to being given GREATER freedom to decide what to do on your own land?

Mungo i have a Audi R8 and i am responsible i cant think of any reason i cannot drive this car well above the current top speed of 70 mph. Unless leaving the decisions in other hands might mean the risks get greater. People working in the industry don't like tipping out calf,s or Kids. I know i have never liked it and always push to get my cull done before there are large foetus in the deer. Am i soft a weaker man than you i doubt that very much i just have ethics and work to season because i feel they work.

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

I’m not going there anymore I’ll only earn myself another ban

Why how would our deer laws help you. We have more deer now than we have ever had and culling with disregard for season has been happening for near 20 years.

 

[Mungo]

Mungo i have a Audi R8 and i am responsible i cant think of any reason i cannot drive this car well above the current top speed of 70 mph. Unless leaving the decisions in other hands might mean the risks get greater. People working in the industry don't like tipping out calf,s or Kids. I know i have never liked it and always push to get my cull done before there are large foetus in the deer. Am i soft a weaker man than you i doubt that very much i just have ethics and work to season because i feel they work.

I absolutely hate tipping out calves, and try to avoid it. But I also hate snaring, and won't do that either. That's just me, and it's subjective.

My point is that what we find unpleasant and potentially traumatic is highly personal, subjective, and often heavily influenced by what is 'normal'.

Snaring is a nasty way to die, by any measure. But it's a useful tool (often the only really effective one), and people have grown up doing it, so generally don't think twice about it. It's normal.

Shooting heavily pregnant females is, as far as we can tell, not actually a bad way for the calf to go - the available evidence indicates they die very fast, and it's not clear that there's much (or indeed any) pain or distress associated with it. It's possibly every bit as humane a death as being shot 8 months later. We find it unpleasant because we're not used it - it's not normal.

But it is actually no different to a calf shot on the hill in January. With the added benefit that you don't have to extract it.

 

[Rasputin]

And lack of outlet for carcasses. I have a friend who owns 10k acres in Scotland, he refuses to cull deer and the population is growing hard - reason being he sees them as an estate asset and is waiting for venison prices to come back to £2.40/kg before culling - otherwise it’s a waste.

Now if the government would subsidize privately culled deer so there was a minimum guaranteed price per KG, these situations would not occur either

Can’t tell if you’re serious or not but that’s a weird approach to business. It’s not like deer are diamonds or some finite resource the price will never come back. Surely he would be better off selling the stalking to individuals than collecting a depreciating destructive asset?