Poll

[JAYB]

There were earlier on in the thread a couple of posts asking why I did not include a "don't know" option which I chose to ignore. Well, I did not ignore these enquiries out of rudeness I ignored them because I had deliberately left out that option because I wanted to see if any of the presented in or out arguments persuaded any undecided voters one way or the other.

The big gamble in it all was that the thread deteriorated, ruined by stupid posts, and was not able to run and provide sensible and comprehensive input. I'm happy, and I think most will agree, that the thread has been conducted in a fairly civilised manner and opinions expressed in a helpful and informed way.

I don't think I have seen any evidence of decisions being taken on the strength of the presented arguments, but it is early days and the experiment continues and will continue hopefully in it's present "grown up" style. Thank you all for your participation.

John

 

[willie_gunn]

They (SNP/Labour) all derive from the Trotskyite camp of followers and are indeed Communist utilising what are populist ideas to achieve their nonsensical political aims. The Eu are unlikely to grant Euro currency to an unsupported independent Scotland and so Scotland would in the event of becoming independent continue to use a 'controlled' Great British £.

They might try to link their currency to the Pound, but they would have no fiscal control over the Pound.

I struggle to see how that would give them independence in any meaningful way.....unless full fiscal independence is too frightening a prospect for them .

Still, before any of that happens we've got to wait and see the result of June 23rd.

 

[willie_gunn]

I don't think I have seen any evidence of decisions being taken on the strength of the presented arguments, but it is early days and the experiment continues and will continue hopefully in it's present "grown up" style. Thank you all for your participation.

John

John

I think the challenge there is that we're not being presented with many logic-based arguments, rather we're hearing opinions and vested interests from both sides of the debate. Some say we'll be less secure, others more secure...some say we'll be more powerful outside of the EU, others less powerful....and so it goes on.

D

 

[Highlandsjohn]

OUT, my sentiments are similar to JAYB. Common sense not common market. john

 

[TonyC]

I do not normally sit on the fence but on this issue I am. I am at an age where it may make little difference to me and I am enjoying the fruits of my long term labours so my one issue at the moment within this argument is the future of the European Firearms Pass and our ability to move around Europe with a rifle fairly easily. Small but important to me !!

I'll get my coat .....................

 

[Pine Marten]

I don't think I have seen any evidence of decisions being taken on the strength of the presented arguments,

I thought I'd relate an example from the parallel universe of the office.

On Monday my colleague H. sat down with me in the canteen towards the end of my lunch and started a rant about leaving the EU, essentially because of immigration. I was in no mood for this and just walked off, but later on, I regretted being rude and dismissive like that. I went to see H. to apologise and said I would hear him out. When he was done, I concluded that I had been right to storm off in the first place, but here are his arguments, which I have made a special effort not to jazz up, just paraphrase:
1. All these immigrants/asylum seekers from Syria are coming here just for the benefits, unlike previous ones who came here to work hard.
2. They are much more likely to be rapists and kiddy-fiddlers than other people.
3. He has a view of England as a lovely, picturesque place like on tourist brochures which he would like it to be again, although he accepts it may never have been that way in the first place.

He also accepts that his comments 1. and 2. are sweeping generalisations but stands by them nonetheless.

The next day, I sent him a slightly edited and contextualised version of Bogtrotter's list of things the EU had done or at least attempted to, specifying that not all of them were done well or indeed successfully, but that was the intention. A few hours later, H. came to see me to say that although he couldn't be bothered to read the whole list, it had, together with our discussions, prompted him to review his position, and I quote: "I realised I don't really have a problem with the EU. It's IS I don't like".
Now the easy response, and indeed my preferred one, would have been to sarcastically say that I also often had trouble telling the difference between Belgian bureaucrats and bearded murderous Fascists, but I didn't. What the discussion highlights is that the entire conversation is mired in a morass of poisonous, undifferentiated, unsourced disinformation. To a great extent, it's H.'s fault that he arrived at these conclusions. I'm pretty sure he scans the Daily Mail website for the stories about celebs in bikinis, and just gleans mixed-up headlines in his peripheral vision. I know that he considers "Google" to be a source. But that's the effect of the appalling quality of much of the public discourse.

The irony of all this is that H. and his family are Sikhs and he's throwing in his political lot with people who would quite probably not want them in their chocolate box England...

 

[Buzzer]

out

 

[jimmy milnes]

out

As you may well be if you don't post and introduction in the appropriate section haha

 

[stag1933]

Out'.

Hwh.

 

[JockStalk]

The staggering thing is that whether informed, uninformed, tainted by sensationalist media, bigoted, extremist, infantile, cynical, cerebrally challenged, or indeed like-minded, every last one of us has an equal vote.

Frightening.

 

[JTO]

Are there any polls like this running on angling websites?

 

[EccentricJackal]

Pine Marten,

I think (opinion only!) that many people, myself included, are swaying towards the leave side due to the sheer number of lies we have been told and misrepresented information given by the government on the issue. It's a furthering of the anti-establishment feeling that newspapers love to write about; the government is choosing to push lies about our relationship with the EU, and about what may happen if we leave, instead of just laying out what the two choices are in detail, and explaining all the good the EU do, and allowing an impartial decision to be made.

The decision for many has been made less on what we bring to the EU and what the EU brings to us, and more on the lack of transparency in how the EU makes decisions, which only makes things worse when EU law is used to force unpopular changes and decisions, coupled with a feeling of being ruled by unseen, unelected foreign bureaucrats...

Ryan

 

[Feugh]

Are there any polls like this running on angling websites?

No poll on the Salmon Fishing Forum, but a lot of opinions. The overall consensus is much like that in this forum - the vast majority are saying that they will vote out, with a few eloquent posters doing their best to convince out voters otherwise.
I do wonder whether deer stalkers and salmon fishermen are representative of the general electorate?

 

[Pine Marten]

I do wonder whether deer stalkers and salmon fishermen are representative of the general electorate?

Erm, not to put too fine a point on it, and based on a range of threads and polls on political topic over the years, no. The SD membership, or at least those who actively engage, are massively more rightwing than average. I don't really like categorising politics as right or leftwing, it's too simple, but there you have it. I mean I generally find myself in a political minority on both sides of the Channel, but on here, there are only maybe half a dozen of us...

 

[Pine Marten]

The decision for many has been made less on what we bring to the EU and what the EU brings to us, and more on the lack of transparency in how the EU makes decisions, which only makes things worse when EU law is used to force unpopular changes and decisions, coupled with a feeling of being ruled by unseen, unelected foreign bureaucrats...

Ryan

Well the way the EU operates isn't in any way a secret:



We elect our government, and they appoint the Council of Ministers, who appoint the Commission. And we directly elect the European Parliament, which holds to account the Commission. The Commission proposes directives and regulations, which are vetted and revised by the Parliament and Council. Directives are only implemented when translated into national legislation, approved by national parliaments. So to say that it's all a diktat from unelected and unaccountable bodies isn't really any more true than to say that of the UK government.

However the fact that no-one really understands that and that no UK government has ever made an effort to explain it is just because none of them have ever been really enthusiastic about the whole package, and the EU does make a tremendously useful political scapegoat for them. That second bit isn't unique to the UK.

 

[EccentricJackal]

Thanks for the summary of how the EU works (genuinely thanks, I know roughly but certainly wouldn't have been able to summarise like that!). A fundamental problem I and I would guess many others have is how many times the word "appoint" is used as opposed to "elect" - though this is far beyond the scope of any renegotiation or referendum.

However the fact that no-one really understands that and that no UK government has ever made an effort to explain it is just because none of them have ever been really enthusiastic about the whole package, and the EU does make a tremendously useful political scapegoat for them.

I agree that is the source of a great deal of the issues many have with the EU.

Ryan

 

[2130martin]

OUT

Nothing wrong with the EU,its the way we interpret all the "guidance" and turn it into "legislation" unedited. Our civil service and politicians are too weak to look after our interests in Europe.

 

[Pine Marten]

Thanks for the summary of how the EU works (genuinely thanks, I know roughly but certainly wouldn't have been able to summarise like that!). A fundamental problem I and I would guess many others have is how many times the word "appoint" is used as opposed to "elect" - though this is far beyond the scope of any renegotiation or referendum.

Ryan

You're welcome. I guess if you think of the Commission as our Cabinet, you have a decent comparison. The President of the Commission (Juncker) is "elected" following a load of unseemly horsetrading between national governments, in the same way as parties choose a leader here. It's all backstabbing, promises and late-night meetings. And then the PM appoints ministers/the Cabinet. Essentially after you've elected your MP, you have no more control over the situation beyond lobbying him/her on how to hold the government to account in Parliament. Same in Brussels/Strasbourg.

For the record, I hugely dislike that system at a national level and don't like it anymore in the EU. But it's within completely normal acceptable parameters of democratic government. It's just that I'm awkward.

 

[EccentricJackal]

You're welcome. I guess if you think of the Commission as our Cabinet, you have a decent comparison. The President of the Commission (Juncker) is "elected" following a load of unseemly horsetrading between national government, in the same way as parties choose a leader here. It's all backstabbing, promises and late-night meetings. And then the PM appoints ministers/the Cabinet. Essentially after you've elected your MP, you have no more control over the situation beyond lobbying him/her on how to hold the government to account in Parliament. Same in Brussels/Strasbourg.

I hadn't really taken the time to draw the comparisons and you have a fair point, but I think the further removed from the original vote the horse-trading takes place the murkier it somehow feels!

For me it comes down to looking at the arguments proposed by each side and making a judgment on which seems to have the fewest holes in it, but since David Cameron is the only one to have made any serious start to the campaigning, and his statements are filled with very shakey claims particularly with regards to his 'renegotiation', and because of this I am leaning towards out, and currently find it hard to see any way the Out campaign can do any worse than that...

For the record, I hugely dislike that system at a national level and don't like it anymore in the EU. But it's within completely normal acceptable parameters of democratic government. It's just that I'm awkward.

I completely agree there!

Ryan

 

[deeangeo]

They might try to link their currency to the Pound, but they would have no fiscal control over the Pound.

I struggle to see how that would give them independence in any meaningful way.....unless full fiscal independence is too frightening a prospect for them .

Still, before any of that happens we've got to wait and see the result of June 23rd.

So true WG. It's all Chinese whispers & gossip until the 'real world' strikes.