Land Reform (Scotland) Bill 2015 - Sporting Rates

[loafcottage1]

Good evening all. I have read all posts lodged to date with interest. I too have received VN's today which I will be appealing. Further details will follow and presentations proposed to the likes of ADMG, LDNS, SGA, BDS, BASC SGA, SL & E etc. Those that have already received VN's are those initially identified and valued across Scotland totalling just under 10,000 entries. This is Phase 1. Phase 2 will follow by 31st Apr 2018 these also being effective 1st Apr 2017. Phase 3 will commence during the next financial year. The current reliefs are applicable to the current financial year only. They are reviewed annually and not guaranteed. I'm afraid entries will also trigger further liabilities in due course. Further details will follow. ALL ratepayers have a strict 6 mth period to appeal. It is widely accepted between those involved in this process to date that c. 80% of entries raised will contain errors. This is a new valuation scheme involving complex issues. ALL are recommended to take advice and appeal. It is widely anticipated that an industry challenge will also follow. Please see link for further details and look forward to meeting as many of you as possible at future events. I will endeavour to post further details and links in the next week or so. In the meantime do not panic as measures can be taken to challenge and mitigate liabilities/valuations. However do NOT allow empathy to rue the day. (Former SAA Shootings Working Group member and now to challenge the new valuation scheme - 'game keeper turned poacher'): Savills | Sporting rates appeal window opens for rural businesses in Scotland

 

[countrryboy]

I was just thinking while this will be a real PITA for land owners, lease holders and shooters in general.

I bet local councils must be absolutlely livid about this, I'd imagine many/most of the more southern councils will have very few estates large enough not to be exempt so will cost them a fortune in paperwork for very little return
I bet u really need to get into Argyll, Perthshire and above to really get into numerous large estates that would qualify on sporting rates alone

Is there any way this could be reversed?
I'd imagine very few folk are in favour of it, even the councils who should be benefiting from it nd definitely no support from the countryside.
The more I look in to it the poorer the legislation seems

 

[Mick9abf]

Had a thought. If the rates are levied on the potential sporting value, whether that sporting value is realised or not, then FCS / FES with a forestry holding in excess of 500,000 hectares face a huge bill ! (OK, it is different pockets but in the same wallet)

Presumably the RSPB should also face a painful bill.

A point I suggested also earlier. The RSPB and JMT who hammered more deer than the community buyout on a certain peninsula spring to mind.

Unfortunately they are also the very 'charities' (I would call them successful businesses) that can soak up the extra expense without batting an eyelid whilst paying senior staff large salaries.

 

[loafcottage1]

I ommitted to also mention all phase 1 entries should be listed to view from tmrw (2nd Oct) at Welcome to the Scottish Assessors Association Portal - Scottish Assessors simply search using the none domestic box per advanced search and core description 'shootings'
Several bodies such as BASC, SNH, FES and the Scottish Goverment themselves are affected.
Further entries for local authorities, reserves, RSPB will follow in phase 2

 

[Mick9abf]

I'm wondering if (technically) it's possible at this stage to break up the sporting rights into beats on larger bits of ground and then leasing them to individual named persons, even from the same family, thus making them exempt.

It may be quite embarrassing for the Muppet Show that is Holyrood.

 

[rodp]

Will charities not be exempt from rates, same as charity shops ?

 

[JTO]

Although rates are usually passed on to the tenant, I thought it was the landowner that was liable. I suspect the c£15,000 threshold will apply to the whole landholding, and therefore be payable, even if there are a number of different tenancies. Might be wrong, of course.

 

[slider]

Although rates are usually passed on to the tenant, I thought it was the landowner that was liable. I suspect the c£15,000 threshold will apply to the whole landholding, and therefore by payable, even if there are a number of different tenancies. Might be wrong, of course.

The rates are payable by the holder of the shooting rights - that would be the tenant if the shooting is let out

 

[Chanty Wrassler]

Will charities not be exempt from rates, same as charity shops ?

Charities are not exempt, they qualify for 80% relief which can be increased at the discretion of the local council. Most local "one off" charity shops would be under the £15000 threshold anyway.

 

[countrryboy]

I'm wondering if (technically) it's possible at this stage to break up the sporting rights into beats on larger bits of ground and then leasing them to individual named persons, even from the same family, thus making them exempt.

It may be quite embarrassing for the Muppet Show that is Holyrood.

That's wot I can see happening, even beat keepers/stalkers becoming the shooting tenants for the length of their employment or splitting sporting agencies/companies up into 2 similar named companies.

Locally to me I can see it hitting more large estates which don't shoot being hit hardest, there is a few big estates near me with only with a tiny % of their ground let out for shooting. Would probably ake sense toalmost giv the shooting rights away yearly for a nominal sum just to get it of their books.

Would be a shame if that happens on 1 estate as it is sited right next to the coast and doesn't allow any goose shooting, otherwise the geese would get absolutely hammered all the time, whereas at the moment they have thousands of acres of sanctuary just inland from the coast on decent agri ground too


Just thinking it could hit ur goose guides and pigeon guides quite hard, some will have massive areas and working on smaller margins
I've heard of some goose/pigeon guides with access to 10's of thousands of acres.

Might be a good thing for locals (and possibly geese) if it breaks up the big monopolies

 

[Mick9abf]

That's wot I can see happening, even beat keepers/stalkers becoming the shooting tenants for the length of their employment or splitting sporting agencies/companies up into 2 similar named companies.

Locally to me I can see it hitting more large estates which don't shoot being hit hardest, there is a few big estates near me with only with a tiny % of their ground let out for shooting. Would probably ake sense toalmost giv the shooting rights away yearly for a nominal sum just to get it of their books.

Would be a shame if that happens on 1 estate as it is sited right next to the coast and doesn't allow any goose shooting, otherwise the geese would get absolutely hammered all the time, whereas at the moment they have thousands of acres of sanctuary just inland from the coast on decent agri ground too


Just thinking it could hit ur goose guides and pigeon guides quite hard, some will have massive areas and working on smaller margins
I've heard of some goose/pigeon guides with access to 10's of thousands of acres.

Might be a good thing for locals (and possibly geese) if it breaks up the big monopolies

TBH its supply and demand. If anything good ground may become more expensive as syndicates will enlarge to soak up the extra expense. Marginal shoots will fold and the cost of guided stalking (which compared the the rest of Europe is still reasonable) will increase thus making it available to those with the deepest pockets. Land in the arse end of nowhere may also decrease in value due to the rates, in short it all fits in with the SNP's rhetoric and plan.

 

[Heym SR20]

To be honest I think it will be last straw for many of us. High rate tax starts at £40k so lower threshold that rest of U.K. Stamp duty is much higher and starts at a much lower rate - and Scottish education is not what it was. This makes it much more difficult for Scottish businesses to attract and retain quality staff. Business rates are also high and putting lots of companies out of business.

But its ok cos we like living in Scotland for the stalking and shooting, and let's be honest commercial shoots aren't really profitable, but offset the costs of the shooting for estate or shooting rights owners. Guided shooting businesses are a way of life (and nothing wrong with that). The Rates have just doubled the cost base of most of these businesses.

Yes you can appeal, but technically until the appeal is upheld, you are still liable for the rates and they can come after you for non payment. This will put many shoots and stalking businesses in an insolvent position.

Big issue is the paying guest. Will that roving phaesant syndicate put down the £10,000 deposit for three days shooting with a shoot that's technically insolvent. Probably not, and without the cash you can't pay birds, feed, keepers etc.

In my day day job I have seen huge amounts of business, investors and wealth just pull out of or not return to Scotland.

This land reform bill sends a very clear message that the SNP just wants to continue the depopulation of rural areas and turn them into wind farms.

Its very depressing.

even more depressing is that non of the press or other commentators are making any comment.

 

[countrryboy]

I must admit it doesn't seem as bad as it 1st appeared, assuming the exemptions are fairly easy to apply for. I was panicking when I 1st read this.
I dare say the 'devil will be in the detail' and it wll be too early yet to really guess wot might happen.
Another positive is it is local authorities running it and not snp/holyrood so u might get a fairer deal/treatment out of them.

as long as most small syndicates/diy, rough shoots qualify for exemption it should not affect the 'wee' man as much as I first feared, I dare same the same with stalking syndicates as long as lease holder is not 'collecting' syndicates.
If most shoots under 10K ish acres are eligble for exemption, there is an awful lot it won't affect (and I'm sure with some clever accounting/lease making etc it might be relatively easy to split ground up, most estates are already a series of trusts anyway)

Even if a game/pheasant shoot has to pay the full value, assuming its commercial or pretty big it could probably swallow the cost relatively easily, while most aren't making big profits (if any) they are usually very high turn over (buying birds, feed etc) so probably amounts to a small % of the turn over.
Takes a very big pheasant shoot to have enough land to be over the allowances

I would imagine it could affect stalking, and goose/pigeon guiding more as generally low turn over and 1 person needs to have a large area so the extra rates will be a big % of turnover and potentially any profit.

I would say its too early to panic just yet, and a lot will depend how the exemptions are handled (will it matter if leaseholder is in eng/outside local authority area?)
Possibly some estates/forestry companies might be keen to offload more ground to syndicates or stalkers.
This extra ground could well be at more reasonable rates (more supply) and estates happy to get rid of the sporting rights liability.


I can see it possibly working in the wee mans favour but who know's


Ps the snp's policy and atiituide to shooting/agriculture/ rural areas is quite depressing but on the bright side they are so incompetent they keep on mucking it up.
Hoping that continues

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

name me a tax that has done anything but increase over time?

You can be sure this is the thin end of the wedge and ANYTHING that comes out of the Scottish Assessors Association will be a work of wild guestimation.

The first figures I have seen on Rate-able value have been ridiculous and almost always JUST over the threshold into the next higher level

 

[Girl_with_a_gun]

My "retirement" plan involved Scotland, right up to about 5 minutes ago! Thanks to everyone who has managed to find some interpretation of this hare-brained chip on shoulder madness. Wales/Cumbria suddenly looking better and better... She may just do us a favour and re-invigorate South of the border with her mad-cap schemes.

 

[slider]

So, as I mentioned in an earlier post, there isa scheme called the Business Bonus Scheme through which the Local Authorities(who collect rates) provide rate relief.

100% relief if your total Rateable Value is under £15,000 then stepped reliefup to £35,000.

The Scottish Assessors Association has confirmed that the "ratableparty" is the holder of the shooting rights - so the landowner or thetenant if the rights are let out. Therefore in many cases the stalker orsyndicate will be getting the bill.

I emailed my Local Authority to asked how they defined a Business in terms ofthe Business Bonus Scheme. This is their reply.
In answer yourquestion, the definition of a small business is an independently owned andoperated enterprise that is limited in size and in revenue depending on theindustry.

Small BusinessBonus legislation allows whoever is in rateable occupation (has the use) of aproperty to apply for SBB. The property must satisfy the thresholdcriteria and the occupant must not be liable for commercial properties inScotland with a cumulative Rateable Value of over £35,000.

The applicant forSmall Business Bonus relief can be an individual, a group of individuals or a named syndicate, whoever leases or owns the property andhas the use of the property can apply.

This confirms that many small shoots and syndicates will be eligible for 100%relief. Although questions remain where the Landlord has retained concurrentrights (i.e FC lease have a clause that states the FC can step in id culltargets are not being met).

The other thing that is raising its head is that it seems that around 80% ofvaluations are wrong.

So
1. Appeal your Valuation.
2. Make sure your lease is correct.
3. Apply to you LA for the rates relief (normally via an on-line form).

Hope this helps

 

[Ooops]

My "retirement" plan involved Scotland, right up to about 5 minutes ago! Thanks to everyone who has managed to find some interpretation of this hare-brained chip on shoulder madness. Wales/Cumbria suddenly looking better and better... She may just do us a favour and re-invigorate South of the border with her mad-cap schemes.

Yep, I'm fast coming to the same conclusion

 

[Hoolit]

This link appeared on The Scottish Gamekeepers Association website hope it helps.
ps I cant figure it out.Re-entry of shooting rights to the valuation roll - FAQs - Scottish Assessors


Hoolit

 

[loafcottage1]

Yes, that pretty much sums up the recommended course of action and error factor on those 10,300 phase 1 entries raised to date.

I can now advise from Weds 11th Oct I will have left the employment of the Assessors and taken up my consultant role as Savills Sporting Rates specialist for Scotland based at their Perth office. Further info/advice will follow in the media/press etc. In the coming weeks. As a former member of the SAA Shootings Working Group I intend to correct those anomalies and errors with the currently applied Valuation Scheme through the appeal process and working in conjunction with fellow industry professionals. Irrespective of any current reliefs ensure an appeal is lodged within the prescribed 6 month period. Peter Wilkinson MRICS IRRV (Hons)- Ayrshire Valuation Joint Board.

 

[slider]

Yes, that pretty much sums up the recommended course of action and error factor on those 10,300 phase 1 entries raised to date.

I can now advise from Weds 11th Oct I will have left the employment of the Assessors and taken up my consultant role as Savills Sporting Rates specialist for Scotland based at their Perth office. Further info/advice will follow in the media/press etc. In the coming weeks. As a former member of the SAA Shootings Working Group I intend to correct those anomalies and errors with the currently applied Valuation Scheme through the appeal process and working in conjunction with fellow industry professionals. Irrespective of any current reliefs ensure an appeal is lodged within the prescribed 6 month period. Peter Wilkinson MRICS IRRV (Hons)- Ayrshire Valuation Joint Board.

Thanks Peter, it's great that we have such a valuable source of knowledge on here to counter the wild speculation and "doom and gloom"

I am sure you will enjoy your move - I know a few of the folks in the Perth Office from my time with Smiths Gore (now taken over by Saville's)

Robin