First Reload Problems

[blueeyes]

Hi primers look flat so I've ran your numbers through Quickload and its saying you have a compressed load you have a cased filled to 110% not Ideal . I will have another look and see if I can sort a little better load out for you
all the best
Andy

Hi Andy I dont understand that I loaded with both vihtavuori cat and Lee I went with the Lapau load on the Vit and the 55grn jacket bullet on the lee so what type of bullet are the Hornady V max classed as heres my load data PS i am using a Lee neck collet die on my fire formed cases

 

[bluesako]

hi matey, some good advise given on here, you asked about cleaning the chamber and lugs, you will be suprised how much debris get in there, buy a chamber cleaning kit, or make one, then give it a good clean out, then try a factory round, if thats ok,bingo, if its still tight with your homeloads, , dont worry we have all been there, try a load with a slightly lower load, two or three rounds, shoot them and see if your bolt lift is ok, then work from there. cheers dave. ps i had a friend call with his rifle, he couldnt close the bolt i cleaned the chamber, and found a small piece of cleaning patch, stuck in the chamber. good luck

 

[kennyc]

Hi Andy I dont understand that I loaded with both vihtavuori cat and Lee I went with the Lapau load on the Vit and the 55grn jacket bullet on the lee so what type of bullet are the Hornady V max classed as heres my load data PS i am using a Lee neck collet die on my fire formed cases
View attachment 100639View attachment 100640

it doesnt much matter what the books says, its how your chamber handles the load that counts, you look to be getting some signs of pressure, check everything is clean, check the dimensions of the formed case, and back off the load a grain or so and work back up in .2 grn increments, the marks on the primer are "pure Remmington" (other brands exist ) so may not be anything to concern you, hard bolt lift and ejector wipe/imprints on the brass are (can't tell if you have these from the photo)

 

[blueeyes]

hi matey, some good advise given on here, you asked about cleaning the chamber and lugs, you will be suprised how much debris get in there, buy a chamber cleaning kit, or make one, then give it a good clean out, then try a factory round, if thats ok,bingo, if its still tight with your homeloads, , dont worry we have all been there, try a load with a slightly lower load, two or three rounds, shoot them and see if your bolt lift is ok, then work from there. cheers dave. ps i had a friend call with his rifle, he couldnt close the bolt i cleaned the chamber, and found a small piece of cleaning patch, stuck in the chamber. good luck

thanks bud been on a downer all day gave it a bit of a clean but didnt use any solvents just a dry wipe I have wipe out KG 1 and 12 also striped and cleaned the bolt the nose was carboned up so gave it a clean and already the bolt is working better thanks

 

[blueeyes]

can you enlighten me a bit more on this thanks

 

[kennyc]

can you enlighten me a bit more on this thanks

primer protusion into the firing pin hole is common where the hole is oversized, Remmington have a history of poor QC on this point (as have others ) so its not always a sign of over pressure. Hard bolt lift is self explanatory the base of the cartridge is expanded by an overcharge causing the ejector to stick as its rotated with the bolt resulting in a smear mark have a read here

 

[blueeyes]

primer protusion into the firing pin hole is common where the hole is oversized, Remmington have a history of poor QC on this point (as have others ) so its not always a sign of over pressure. Hard bolt lift is self explanatory the base of the cartridge is expanded by an overcharge causing the ejector to stick as its rotated with the bolt resulting in a smear mark have a read here

thanks for that bud

 

[Tom D]

One thing to consider is: you don’t think about bolt lift until you start loading. So you could just be sensitive to the pressure of cocking the bolt, since I think your rifle cocks on opening, the bolt lift should be slightly stiff as you are compressing a spring. It’s easy to become hyper sensitive to these things the first time, I know I did.

Still worth cleaning the chamber though. And pop a tiny amount of grease on the two rear faces of the locking lugs.

 

[blueeyes]

ready to start again lads

 

[black lab]

ready to start again lads View attachment 100652

Do you think that will help lmao

 

[bluesako]

dont think your loads are that bad matey, lol and yes as tom d said, put a little grease on the lugs dave.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

stiff bolt on a empty chamber has nothing to do with your loading I would say
When you say "stiff" do you mean "stiffer than usual"?

as pointed out a cock on opening bolt will always be stiff
there should however be no discernible difference between cocking tension on an empty chamber and that on a fired case in the chamber

stiffness can be attributed to the ramp at the rear of the bolt as much as crud in the lug area.
rough ramp and cocking piece will noticeably increase resistance to opening

pull the spring and cocking piece/shroud out of the bolt and see how it feels.
clean up the surface that interfere (bolt lugs, bolt log recess, cocking piece, cocking ramp)
Rinse and repeat!

Compressed powder charge is only relevant if it develops high pressure or through deeply seated long bullets you develop a compressed central core that produces irregular burn characteristics

The 55gr load of 24gr N133 at 2.258" (and a 28.80cc case)
is only 57k out of a max of 62k psi at 110% case fill according to Quikload

Thats a long way of the max pressure
BUT it doesnt necessarily mean its not over pressure in your rifle!

The 40gr VMax load of 25.8gr N133 at 2.258" is only 52kpsi at 113% case fill

the cases don't exhibit any obvious signs of pressure from your pictures

soft primers in 222/223 often give cratering without any issue.
look to the outer edge for better indication of pressure
yours don't look too bad at all

 

[blueeyes]

Thanks for that Ed, so I can return the suit , it has also been suggested that the length of the 55 V max and seat depth could have been a contributing factor, I still cant get my head round how I ended up over max with quick load when I followed the loads to the letter, as I said I gave the firing pin and chamber a dry clean and it has helped , the stiffness was only occurring after firing or dry firing, will have to try stripping the bolt further and check things out thanks

 

[Yorric]

Do what uncle Ed suggests. Deep clean the bolt & use a touch of good grease on the lugs & cocking ramp. That should improve bolt opening feel/load.

Note. Some greases don't work with some metal bearing surfaces. For example, I have some teflon filled airgun grease that simply doesn't work well at all on stainless actions. I had a serious stiff bolt syndrome on my Sako 85 which has a stainless action - I now use an "extreme pressure" grease. It makes a big difference in my rifles & my Sako is now slick with proper opening feel.

Many book 223 loads are compressed & don't give excessive pressures.

Don't "chase the lands" just use a book COAL or copy factory rounds for length measured on the ogive.
There is sooooo much ill advised hype online about getting bullets so many thou off the lands. For group size improvement change powder charge (only change one parameter at a time) & concentrate on consistency of your loading & also your firing technique. Shoot at least five (better ten) rounds of each loading (less can give you false impressions of how well that loading suits your rifle).

Pressure can be significantly different if you use different makes of brass - even resulting in pressure signs at low book charge weights in some rifles. - That is why there are published start loads & some data includes brass make.

Ian

 

[blueeyes]

Do what uncle Ed suggests. Deep clean the bolt & use a touch of good grease on the lugs & cocking ramp. That should improve bolt opening feel/load.

Note. Some greases don't work with some metal bearing surfaces. For example, I have some teflon filled airgun grease that simply doesn't work well at all on stainless actions. I had a serious stiff bolt syndrome on my Sako 85 which has a stainless action - I now use an "extreme pressure" grease. It makes a big difference in my rifles & my Sako is now slick with proper opening feel.

Many book 223 loads are compressed & don't give excessive pressures.

Don't "chase the lands" just use a book COAL or copy factory rounds for length measured on the ogive.
There is sooooo much ill advised hype online about getting bullets so many thou off the lands. For group size improvement change powder charge (only change one parameter at a time) & concentrate on consistency of your loading & also your firing technique. Shoot at least five (better ten) rounds of each loading (less can give you false impressions of how well that loading suits your rifle).

Pressure can be significantly different if you use different makes of brass - even resulting in pressure signs at low book charge weights in some rifles. - That is why there are published start loads & some data includes brass make.

Ian

thanks Ian couple questions
would the grease not attract more debris
and what about the 55grn V max with the Ogive as its a longer bullet ,I was told it might have been too close to the powder etc
so take an O give reading from my Sako 55 game kings and use that for my 55 grn Vmax ?

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

thanks Ian couple questions
would the grease not attract more debris
and what about the 55grn V max with the Ogive as its a longer bullet ,I was told it might have been too close to the powder etc
so take an O give reading from my Sako 55 game kings and use that for my 55 grn Vmax ?

Yes it does
use sparingly or not all, change/clean frequently if you do not wish to create nice grinding paste
dry lubes work well

you can polish the rear surfaces of the cocking ramp and cocking peice
don't attempt that on the bolt lugs though


Who told you it would be too close to the powder?
try to remember everything else they have told you and delete from memory!

you are running compressed loads
the bullet is IN the powder!!
doesnt come any closer and its not a problem unless the powder choice is poor

better a compressed load producing less than max pressure
than a 50% case fill with a pistol powder that will blow your face off

 

[ChesterP]

As others have said, as it's a matter of ruling out things as well as looking at the loads, start by properly cleaning the chamber and lug recesses. Whilst some compressed loads may not be themselves an issue, crunching powders up can speed up burn rate and certainly can result in high pressures. Slightly compressed loads are not a problem. I would advise against highly compressed loads until you learn the powder characteristics.

I would observe that a stiffening bolt with load increase, irrespective of a slightly stiff bolt on dry firing, combined with the visual evidence of cratered primers which have the shoulders clearly flattening are clear indicators of high-ish pressure. What primers were you using? .223 can benefit from the use of magnum primers once up to the upper safe pressures as the cup thickness increase is less likely to cause any blown primer issues. Having said that I've used standard CCIs for years with mine without any dramas whilst Murom KVB-223s have blown on me and gas-cut the bolt face. Lesson learned.

Back your loads off a bit and start the load ladder again once you have a clean rifle, and stop as soon as you witness any pressure signs combining with a stiff bolt, then back off by around a grain if using Viht powders would be my advice to take or leave. Every rifle is different and max load in books may have a factor of safety built in or may not....it's just a guide. I'd be very wary of listening to any advice that says its ok to continue with cratered primers and flattened primer edges. Cratering occurs at higher pressures as the primer tries to flow around the firing pin. Ignore what others say they do when shooting flattened primers as until you have enough experience under your belt, you cannot afford to close an eye to any pressure signs. Safety first.

 

[blueeyes]

thanks ED (better a compressed load producing less than max pressure
than a 50% case fill with a pistol powder that will blow your face off)

F-ck i will be keeping the suite after all

 

[Highlandsjohn]

This is what I use on sticky bolts but be warned it dries mat black which can be removed easily if and when. You can see where the surfaces are bearing as it wears off.

Moly grease is very good to work the sticky bolt lugs during cleaning. As said it will attract debris and best not left in place for using the rifle in the field. john

View attachment 100665

 

[25 Sharps]

Thanks for that Ed, so I can return the suit , it has also been suggested that the length of the 55 V max and seat depth could have been a contributing factor, I still cant get my head round how I ended up over max with quick load when I followed the loads to the letter, as I said I gave the firing pin and chamber a dry clean and it has helped , the stiffness was only occurring after firing or dry firing, will have to try stripping the bolt further and check things out thanks

I do, give 3 people with quick load the same data and they will come up with 3 similar but definitely different answers!!!

You are under viht's data for every 55 gr bullet they list and some 60's, your COAL which is basically Saami length means you're load isn't increasing pressure by loading short. Work back up by all means as it pays to be sure but I suspect a dirty chamber, I have a Howa 6.5 creedmoor with a tight factory neck and possibly a tight chamber. If I don't keep the chamber clean I get high pressure, ejector marks, heavy bolt lift even on my very soft fireforming load that is well down normally. Give the chamber and neck a good clean and all is well with the world again, shooting max book loads with no pressure signs at all!

The fact you are now getting heavy bolt lift with the factory rounds where presumably you weren't before, not just the reloads means something has changed with the rifle, so the pressure signs you are getting on the reloads may also be false. As stated previously work back up just to be sure once you are firing fatory with no pressure again so you are starting from a known point. Also work back up if changing primers.

This doesn't explain the heavy lift on opening on an empty chamber but this may well be down to you just not noticing the effort to cock the spring on opening because you weren't looking for it before, if that makes sense?

Rifle reloading - Vihtavuori