The TSX's were extremely accurate but if I can't risk chest shooting small deer with them accuracy doesn't count for much!
monolithic on roe any experience ?
- Thread starter murph3010
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murph3010
Well-Known Member
I agree . I think I may have come across wrong. I was just saying for me they have improved my confidence with accuracy that's all. I wish more people had experience with them in 243.
I suspect that this may be due to the massive temporary cavity that develops immediately after penetration of the skin. I have seen more severe wounding with the 130g TTSX on fox than I ever have on Roe which may allow parallels to be drawn to Munties. I see very acceptable meat damage on Roe with TTSX and in fact my go to cartridge for clearfell is the 7mm Rem mag with the 120g TTSX at 3250 fps
Early days for me with Barnes TTSX 120gn out of a 6.5x284 running at about 3100fps.
I shot a young hind that was lying down - steady rest, prone off bipod, both stalker and I watched the impact which looked spot on but it ran. Unfortunately never recovered. We watched it for 30+ minutes across the glen as it followed the rest of the 80 strong herd. Kept up all the way and no signs of slowing down, kept on grazing etc. Still troubles me now as we couldn’t get near it to follow up so no idea what happened but it was definitely hit.
I’ve since shot a few more ok but the last lowland red hind I shot (100yds, same rifle / bullet and spot on placement) had terrible bruising around the shot site. Pretty much the entire rib cage on one side was covered with blood / bruising.
I like the idea of non toxic and ttsx are supposed to be as good as anything but jury is still out for me.
I shot a young hind that was lying down - steady rest, prone off bipod, both stalker and I watched the impact which looked spot on but it ran. Unfortunately never recovered. We watched it for 30+ minutes across the glen as it followed the rest of the 80 strong herd. Kept up all the way and no signs of slowing down, kept on grazing etc. Still troubles me now as we couldn’t get near it to follow up so no idea what happened but it was definitely hit.
I’ve since shot a few more ok but the last lowland red hind I shot (100yds, same rifle / bullet and spot on placement) had terrible bruising around the shot site. Pretty much the entire rib cage on one side was covered with blood / bruising.
I like the idea of non toxic and ttsx are supposed to be as good as anything but jury is still out for me.
You may well be right. This combo was meant primarily for shooting munties so may have been ok on larger deer. I will never know now though!
murph3010
Well-Known Member
I have decided after much research as i can that for roe im going to go to tried and tested lead. i just love how the sako monos shoot but im not sure im happy with how it can pencil through if it misses bone , this not through experience but from what people have said on here and reading as much as i can find on them. i suspect in the future it will be something we have no choice in. I hope though that the designs advance maybe to resolve the issues monos seem to have.
I wouldn't give up on them, certainly not until you have actually tried them for yourself.
I think shot placement has a lot more to do with bang flop than bullet construction. A bullet your rifle likes and you have confidence in, is worth a lot. Your ability to place an expanding monolithic bullet precisely, easily outweighs a less accurate bullet for lighter or indeed any game.
For bullet placement, have a look at some of @dodgyknees posts on the Hilar CNS. It is true he reckons monolithics are not appropriate for his 600 metre long range culling. But for our mainly sub 150 metre stalking I think they have the advantages and versatilely of a partition bullet, with none of their disadvantages of metal particles in the meat we are going to eat or the gralloch we leave behind.
Others have pointed out on here that when an animal runs after being shot with a traditional lead bullet people just shrug and say that is how it goes sometimes...but if the same thing happens with a non-toxic bullet it is always the bullet construction that is perceived to be the problem not the placement. I think the same mistrust of the new was levelled at the polymer tipped designs when Nosler introduced their Ballistic Tip...lots of posts on here about the devastating meat damage over a conventional soft point...do a search or two.
If one could guarantee that you will never have a runner or a failure with a lead bullet then fine stick with them....but no-one can guarantee this. I have had both Roe and Muntjac drop where they stood with TTSX and GMX and run with soft point and BT lead core bullets.
All high velocity projectiles can do unpredictable things. I have had a classic soft point 150gr Sako Super Hammerhead do a weird thing in a broadside-on Muntjac at around 30 metres...it hit a rib on the way in, took off the top of the heart hit the far side and turned at 90˚ took out a 25mm wide swathe of ribs and exited just in front of the haunch...it doesn't detract from the bang flop of the two Roe that the same bullets produced the month before.
About half the deer I have shot with a rifle have been with lead and the second half have been with either Barnes TTSX or GMX. The balance of bang flop or run has been pretty much the same throughout. If anything I have had better results with the non-toxic, though that could be as a result of their accuracy and my improving marksmanship and experience rather than their construction. It is true that the longest run was a Fallow doe at 70 metres with a 130gr TTSX but the second longest at 50 metres was a Fallow pricket with a 150gr Nosler Ballistic tip, and the third a Fallow doe at 40 metres was with a Hornady 165gr SST.
Alan
stevenedwards
Well-Known Member
Alan, your experience is interesting can you give us an idea of what velocity you are sending the TTSX at as from other comment it would appear that velocity at impact is a little more critical than with most conventional rounds.
Make sure it doesnt miss bone. Shoulder shoot them, or hilar (fusebox) shots.
murph3010
Well-Known Member
I'm a bit to new to this and although the rifle and shot placement with the 80gr sakos gives me confidence just the amount of people that have said that the pencil through on small game has made me nervous about them. Ive put up another post asking for suggestions for a try in 80gr to 90gr in 243 that people like on roe as that's all I'm going for at this stage.
murph3010
Well-Known Member
This at the very least has become a very interesting post and I hope people keep posting about their experiences with them. As I said before I think this will be the way things go in the future but I'm going to try some other ammo see how it performs through my rifle.
I shot one of each over a chronograph in February 130gr TTSX was 2969 fps the 110gr TTSX are 3235 fps. On the same target was 110V_MAX in a Lapua case at 3228 and in a Hornady case was 3175 fps.
The maximum range I am likely to shoot on my permissions is 200 metres but usually they are well under 100.
I have been loading some Fox 130gr but have not put them over the Chronograph yet or used them on deer. The 6no. 5-shot groups of 3 different loads shot during load development are averaging 0.933" (I had one aberrant shot which if discounted brings the average down to 0.7956"... Sadly no such thing as fliers!
)The amount of people who will have had failures with lead based bullets will be in the billions of course. If you read a lot of stalking experiences you will find a lot of people will be vehement about the advantage of one type of bullet...soft point, partition, polymer tipped based on a bad experience or two of one or other. Some have experienced pencilling some complain of lack of penetration and no exit hole...Some favour slow and heavy, others fast and flat.
If put in the right place they will all work... sometimes even if put in the right place they don't work as well.
Alan
stevenedwards
Well-Known Member
I shot one of each over a chronograph in February 130gr TTSX was 2969 fps the 110gr TTSX are 3235 fps. On the same target was 110V_MAX in a Lapua case at 3228 and in a Hornady case was 3175 fps.
The maximum range I am likely to shoot on my permissions is 200 metres but usually they are well under 100.
I have been loading some Fox 130gr but have not put them over the Chronograph yet or used them on deer. The 6no. 5-shot groups of 3 different loads shot during load development are averaging 0.933" (I had one aberrant shot which if discounted brings the average down to 0.7956"... Sadly no such thing as fliers!
The amount of people who will have had failures with lead based bullets will be in the billions of course. If you read a lot of stalking experiences you will find a lot of people will be vehement about the advantage of one type of bullet...soft point, partition, polymer tipped based on a bad experience or two of one or other. Some have experienced pencilling some complain of lack of penetration and no exit hole...Some favour slow and heavy, others fast and flat.
If put in the right place they will all work... sometimes even if put in the right place they don't work as well.
Alan
Those are the kind of fps. I had expected. I have some fox 123gr to load but at the moment I'm struggling to get the powder and the bullet in the case and fit in my creedmoor. I have loaded the Fox 100gr. to 3000fps. and stopped two Roe so far with no problems.I shot one of each over a chronograph in February 130gr TTSX was 2969 fps the 110gr TTSX are 3235 fps. On the same target was 110V_MAX in a Lapua case at 3228 and in a Hornady case was 3175 fps.
The maximum range I am likely to shoot on my permissions is 200 metres but usually they are well under 100.
I have been loading some Fox 130gr but have not put them over the Chronograph yet or used them on deer. The 6no. 5-shot groups of 3 different loads shot during load development are averaging 0.933" (I had one aberrant shot which if discounted brings the average down to 0.7956"... Sadly no such thing as fliers!
The amount of people who will have had failures with lead based bullets will be in the billions of course. If you read a lot of stalking experiences you will find a lot of people will be vehement about the advantage of one type of bullet...soft point, partition, polymer tipped based on a bad experience or two of one or other. Some have experienced pencilling some complain of lack of penetration and no exit hole...Some favour slow and heavy, others fast and flat.
If put in the right place they will all work... sometimes even if put in the right place they don't work as well.
Alan
Interesting that your experience of the bruising is presumably the opposite problem that @murph3010 has read about to those who experienced penciling. Too much energy dumped in the beast.
Amazing that the same bullet can do both...not!
It does go to show that high velocity projectiles do not necessarily do the same thing every time when coming into contact with a live animal.
Incidentally did you attempt a heart and lung shot on the young hind or was it a neck or head shot? Apart from the proximity to deflecting vegetation of a laid down beast I have not been confident of my deer anatomy to figure where the internal organs are likely to have been squished to, so have only ever neck shot them.
Alan
paulux
Well-Known Member
Don't give up on monometallic bullets as a whole in your .243. They are many other brands you can try than Barnes and their ttsx. Fox bullets for instance have a good reputation of expanding well even at lower velocities. I'm going to try their 100 gr 6.5mm on roe this summer and have high hopes of them performing well.
When I had a 7x65R, my favorite ammunition was the monometallic French brand FIP Sauvestre 168 gr, they performed perfectly on lung shot roe, with very little carcass damage.
Yep, everything I’ve read is “eat right up to the hole” so was a bit surprised to skin a big red hind and find so much blood and bruising!
Young hind lying down was theoretically hilar shot - high, forward shoulder / low neck. All I can think is that the round pencilled through shoulder muscle with no contact with bone. Really strange one as it was head down feeding again within 10 mins but definitely hit initially, although clearly not overly distressed. 200yd shot so velocities would be down a bit but 120gn bullet out of a 6.5x284 so wasn’t exactly “slow”!
Both the TTSX and accubond rounds are same poi in my rifle so can change between the 2 and have to admit that I reach for the accubonds when out on the hill. Maybe that’ll change if I get more confidence in the TTSX as I like the idea of not spreading lead through the carcass!
You can get haematoma formation around any bullet wound where the blood is forced by the under pressure from the ruptured vessel and follows the path of least resistance. This blood can be removed if you are careful leaving intact meat after a non fragmenting bullet wound. If you contrast this against meat from around a lead bullet wound the meat is not intact and has a rough, gritty appearance to it caused by the thousands of tiny lead fragments
Cheers - makes sense. it did clean up ok as the blood was mainly confined to between membranes rather than in the muscle, but was just surprised at the amount - pretty much the entire shoulder and rib cage on one side.
Buggadifino
Well-Known Member
I use the RWS Evo Green (127 grain) in my Mauser M03 7x64 and it is absurdly accurate and it does everything you can expect a bullet to do.
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