Guardian - Golden Eagle Tag found near Grousemoor - who are these idiots ?

[Waz77]

Just happened to wash up in a river just before the start of the grouse shooting season? How convenient This year raptor breeding success has been its highest ever on the moors around here, all during lockdown, when for a period the only people out on the moors were the keepers who worked there. If I wanted to get rid of something I wouldn't wrap it in a little parcel for someone to "find" I'd destroy it, simples

 

[Liveonce]

Just happened to wash up in a river just before the start of the grouse shooting season? How convenient This year raptor breeding success has been its highest ever on the moors around here, all during lockdown, when for a period the only people out on the moors were the keepers who worked there. If I wanted to get rid of something I wouldn't wrap it in a little parcel for someone to "find" I'd destroy it, simples

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The object was spotted by a walker and his son on the banks of the River Braan near Dunkeld in Perthshire on 21 May.

 

[Waz77]

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The object was spotted by a walker and his son on the banks of the River Braan near Dunkeld in Perthshire on 21 May.

And your point?

 

[Liveonce]

And your point?

Just that it did not just happen to wash up just before the start of the grouse shooting season.

 

[countrryboy]

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The object was spotted by a walker and his son on the banks of the River Braan near Dunkeld in Perthshire on 21 May.

Would a lead box not be very heavy?? Can't imagine it floating or being swept very far.
U'd think they would off found a nice deep hole where the water is slow moving.even n floods

If they have went to all the hassle of walking about the hill will lead boxes in his pocket/bag to disguise tracker signal then just chuck it casually in a river.

The whole story is just so impractical when u think about it, carrying heavy lead about on hill, no BoP body, BoP autopsy by ouija board, making a box to fit tracker ( even thinking it up is quite impressive) so going to James bond levels of sophistication and forethought to then just chuck it in a river where it could be washed up
Just complete nonesense I can't believe anyone believes it.

Ps if happened in may why just coming out now??

I bet it's the start of a campaign for start of pheasant season or some wildlife bill going throu holyrood

 

[Waz77]

Here's another alleged wildlife crime, what are your thoughts on this?

 

[Apthorpe]

It's quite straightforward to understand this....
A gamekeeper went out carrying a fair sized sheet of old roofing lead in his coat every day until he got the chance to shoot a golden eagle. He shot the eagle, wrapped the transmitter in lead and then took it several miles away from a remote moor to go and chuck it in a river at a popular beauty spot.
Alternatively, the keeper may have thrown it in further upstream, and because this is magic lead and not normal lead which would be the densest material in the river, it didn't stay stuck to the bottom of the river as the denser material does, but was washed down several miles at times of high flow until it ended up where it was found ....without the soft lead being in anyway weathered, dented or battered by several miles of bashing stones, rocks and silt.
Four years later, a "walker" just happened to find a lump of old lead sheet so fascinating that he fished it from the river bed, photographed it and then opened it to find the tag.
The keeper did this because any of the myriad of more effective or likely ways to get rid of a transmitter were too convenient or plausible.

Why on earth would anybody doubt that story?

 

[Waz77]

It's quite straightforward to understand this....
A gamekeeper went out carrying a fair sized sheet of old roofing lead in his coat every day until he got the chance to shoot a golden eagle. He shot the eagle, wrapped the transmitter in lead and then took it several miles away from a remote moor to go and chuck it in a river at a popular beauty spot.
Alternatively, the keeper may have thrown it in further upstream, and because this is magic lead and not normal lead which would be the densest material in the river, it didn't stay stuck to the bottom of the river as the denser material does, but was washed down several miles at times of high flow until it ended up where it was found ....without the soft lead being in anyway weathered, dented or battered by several miles of bashing stones, rocks and silt.
Four years later, a "walker" just happened to find a lump of old lead sheet so fascinating that he fished it from the river bed, photographed it and then opened it to find the tag.
The keeper did this because any of the myriad of more effective or likely ways to get rid of a transmitter were too convenient or plausible.

Why on earth would anybody doubt that story?

Ah, now it makes perfect sense, thank you

 

[Mickeydredd]

Would a lead box not be very heavy?? Can't imagine it floating or being swept very far.
U'd think they would off found a nice deep hole where the water is slow moving.even n floods

assuming it was thrown from Rumbling Bridge itself, it is a very deep and fast flowing rocky gorge even at low water levels (hence the name of the bridge). The power of the water there could easily shift a fair weight of an object although it could be assumed that a reasonable weight might stay lodged in the bowls there.

like you though, I can’t see how anyone would be thick enough to risk throwing it in the river, as from memory there are plenty rubbish bins it could have been wrapped in a bag and thrown in, never to be seen again.

 

[User00025]

Here's another alleged wildlife crime, what are your thoughts on this?

Quite ridiculous!! How many hares would back into a tunnel and kick a trap with one leg. Can't see the trap and no disturbance of loose bits of ground, which there would be if it was for real. The hare appears to have been dead a while. Any keeper checks his traps daily, because he has to and a sprung trap doesn't catch.
PERFECT SET UP.

 

[simonl]

Are we really saying the people who want to protect these raptors will kill them and plant evidence such that they can then use it to campaign to regulate or ban dgs? Possible I guess.

Say they found it run over near a grouse moor.
Option 1 - admit it died a non criminal death.
Option 2 - make it look as suspicious as possible

 

[Apthorpe]

Are we really saying the people who want to protect these raptors will kill them and plant evidence such that they can then use it to campaign to regulate or ban dgs? Possible I guess.

A later post highlights that the same tendency were not above falsifying evidence given to the police and attacking the house of the police officer who questioned its veracity. It is terribly naive to think of these people as all being mild-mannered, law-abiding animal lovers.
Nobody thinks these people are killing raptors, but it's not implausible that they're using corpses they find in other places, or otherwise altering or fabricating evidence. Certainly less farfetched than this incident....

 

[Waz77]

Quite ridiculous!! How many hares would back into a tunnel and kick a trap with one leg. Can't see the trap and no disturbance of loose bits of ground, which there would be if it was for real. The hare appears to have been dead a while. Any keeper checks his traps daily, because he has to and a sprung trap doesn't catch.
PERFECT SET UP.

My thoughts exactly, that site and many more are filled with these sorts of lies, claiming larsen traps, snares and fenn traps etc are illegal and asking the public to destroy them if found, I've even spoken to some of these retards and they think it's OK to lie as long as it gets people on side because as they see it they are fighting the good fight You've only got to read the comments on there and other sites to see what we are up against

 

[kes]

The above is why only the truth can be truly believed for both sides and finding it is the crucial element in nailing all such 'myths'. It may be the antis - it may be the shooting industry, some of the time but publicising the truth independently endorsed will sway the greater majority of those who have no axe to grind. We have to demonstrate a "no tolerance" approach.

 

[Tony Morgan]

all the keepers I have known are pretty astute guys and would have a lot more common sense than leave evidence of their crimes for someone to find

Tells a tale......

 

[jer]

And yet, even though you knew of keepers who bragged about it, you did ... nothing, it seems. You didn't bring it to the attention of the police, or NE, or anyone who could investigate. You were happy to let it slide.

Yes, you had no evidence. But you had a claim from someone that they had committed a crime. If nothing else, the police knocking on that person's door would have made them a lot more wary about breaking the law in future. The authorities may have even, with investigation, have found evidence of a crime, and been able to prosecute.
If only you had the balls to actually do something about it.

And yes, you told, in your post, someone to 'grow a pair'. It was in reply to them saying something similar to you, but you did say it. I even put your quote in bold, for the hard of reading.

You really do like to make assumptions that a crime actually existed regardless of the lack of evidence and your logic is if someone says "I don't tolerate BOP on my ground" that would be enough evidence for someone to report to the police and that they would do anything about it. Am I happy to not report to the police every time someone makes a comment where I could make an assumption that they committed a crime and I had no evidence, yes. As you think something like that warrants reporting then I'm sure you have heard similar comments and done what you consider the right thing and reported it, I would be interested to know how many you have reported and how your reports were followed up despite your lack of evidence, or maybe you would deny that you have ever heard anyone say such a thing to which I would question why you are so convinced that grouse moors and keepers are acting criminally all the time and must be responsible for this BOP that went missing.
I find it odd that you also say you think Avery's article made a lot of sense, when I read it I found it full of assumptions, his first few paragraphs state that the bird was killed by criminals (despite the lack of a corpse and evidence how it died) and he attributed the "crime" to a grouse moor, the rest of his article goes on to conclude that there could be no other possible explanation other than the one he supports and you also subscribe to that view in your posts. Sherlock Holmes would have been proud of that fete of detection work.
To make valid comments on something you should be in possession of the facts and not do as so many of the antis do and jump straight to a conclusion of guilt where you would want to find it and its interesting that you are so convinced that this case could not possibly have an explanation where the evidence was set up by an anti who may have obtained a tag from a natural or accidental bird death and used it as ammunition against shooting. I do not know how this event occurred however the way this tag was hidden and later discovered wrapped in a sheet of lead and later found in a local beauty spot that is frequented by lots of people where it has the best chance of discovery seems lunacy, if you have committed a crime and want to hide the evidence you would simply destroy it not leave it where it has a good chance of being discovered by a third party.
The big problem with these issues is that too many have hidden agendas where any and every incident is automatically linked to shooting despite a lack of evidence, Its got to the point where a tag that has stopped transmitting is immediate cause for condemnation of grouse moors on social media. If someone is found to act illegally I fully support that they get a heavy sentence that is after facts are established and guilt proven.

 

[Donnachaidh]

There used to be reports of raptors being killed by wind turbines some years ago. Now the default position is that every bird of prey that disappears has been killed by gamekeepers.
Within the past few weeks a hunt saboteur was convicted of perverting the course of justice by tampering with a video tape so that it appeared he had been assaulted....that speaks volumes to me.

 

[willie_gunn]

There are still reports out there about raptors being killed by wind turbines.

For example see Raptors and wind farm collisions - Scottish Nature Notes - Our work - The RSPB Community

This is the Norwegian study they mention, looking into deaths of sea eagles: Sea eagle research at Smøla wind farm

Imagine the publicity if it was gamekeepers killing an average of six sea eagles each year!

One recent study that received quite a bit of publicity suggested painting one turbine blade could reduce bird fatalities by over 70%: see Error - Cookies Turned Off and Black turbine blade 'can cut bird deaths'

It's not just birds - bats are also frequently caught by wind turbines.

Strangely wind turbines don't seem to raise the same emotions.

 

[Mickeydredd]

Just a few miles from Rumbling Bridge, they built a windfarm a few years ago and I remember that two male HH were killed by the turbines in fairly quick succession. Such deaths do not seem to garner much negativity at all for some reason, I cannot fathom why. I do know that the raptor study groups do receive payment for data they supply to potential windfarm sites which puts them in rather an awkward position, not sure if the RSPB receive any similar payments.

 

[User00025]

All these raptor deaths (and other birds) due to windfarms, traffic, cats etc.
Surely the wonderful shooting organisations have their finger on this pulse along with the records of there being rarer species of creatures breeding on keepered estates.
If so why are they not hitting the front pages of newspapers with this. Packham et al seem to be able to gain access to every form of media why not those who purport to defend fieldsports. Again it seems we (excluding me, I don't belong to any now) are supported by "Paper Tigers " and poor ones at that.