Cleaning Regimes and potential health implications

[paul o']

Ha ha! I vivdly remember c. 1984 the short but fierce bearded schoolmaster who was also Cdr. RNR and o/c CCF emerging from the school armoury, billowing pipe in mouth, saying he'd leave the cadets to get on with the rifle-cleaning alone as Hoppe's was carcinogenic.

Mind you, we were still splashing carbon tetrachloride about in the labs in those days, and using aniline dyes to stain specimens for microscopy.

Carbon tet that brings back the days of heat tanks and floating away into a nice sleep .

 

[mealiejimmy]

It's 1962 and and I'm in Primary 7.
We have one male teacher in the school and in our final term before going to secondary school the boys get "technical" in which we have to make a paperknife using plastic for the blade and then attach the handles using a plastic solvent
What was the solvent - feckin chloroform!!!

Cheers

Bruce

 

[geoffw]

Use nitrile gloves and be in ventilated areas. Not rocket science... things have moved on since being unsupervised cadets with bottles of old Hoppes.

Have they? B&gger!

 

[geoffw]

Another thread prompted me to have a think about us regular shooters and how often we come into compounds which are extremely hazardous for our health so I thought it might be an interesting subject to share experience and have a discussion on it. There will, of course, be opinions ranging from "don't bother worrying about it" to "hazmat suit worn every time!". However, it's not meant to be a circular argument but a forum discussion which may throw up something that we can all learn from. I'm not a chemist nor a biologist so please excuse my ignorance. I'm a humble engineer.

I visited HPS a few years ago and took and interest in Matt's new drying machine for brass. I asked him what prompted a change from the large tumblers which invariably were running most times I visited and his explanation gave me pause for thought.

Matt had recently retuned from a course on methods of batch processing/cleaning to see if there was anything he and his team could learn from and it was he who raised the issue with me and suggested I give it some thought. Of course, I don't turn over anything like the volumes he deals with on a daily basis but I do monthly batch up to several hundred rounds for case prep and reloading.

What I learned was this. Of most concern are the compounds used in primers. Primers contain, amongst others, a mix of Lead Styphnate, Barium Nitrate, Tetrazine and Antimony Sulphide. When detonated, the resultant residue contains traces of these chemicals which are known to be toxic, including cumulative toxins like lead. Over prolonged use, coming into contact with these can lead to respiratory disease and potential for poisoning of the central nervous system. More recent studies also concluded that by volume of toxicity, non lead projectile alternatives such as copper led to greater occurrence of respiratory conditions with symptoms occurring within a few days of exposure. Much of this contact happens during the firing, but in the case of case prep, shooters may have become rather unsensitised to the real dangers present when tumbling brass as the fine dust particles create a cloud of toxic fine powder in enclosed spaces which if inhaled can lead to serious long term health issues which may materialise some time later.

In Matt's case, his answer was to use ultrasonic cleaning which contains the compounds within solution, and then air drying the brass.

I modified my own regime but grew tired of U/S cleaning and drying as it was time consuming. Now, I dry tumble in a ventilated space and use gloves and an FP3 rated face mask when opening the lid of the tumbler and sieving the media into a bucket before returning to the tumbler. The media becomes more contaminated with each use so I dispose of the media after perhaps half a dozen uses because it is cheap and I want to limit my exposure. I recently had to have a CT scan of my chest and I asked that they look at my lungs as part of the scan to see of recent years has resulted in any changes from my last one some 5 years back when my chest was clear as a bell. The results came back showing that I have developed a nodule on one lung, so I am having this looked into further but it may be completely unrelated to my shooting (or it may not be).

I guess that limiting exposure time and toxicity levels is key to staying healthy so this would point to U/S or wet tumbling as perhaps the safer methods of cleaning.

My reloading stages are tumble, de-cap, full length size, trim as needed, wipe off excess lube using a kitchen towel (most use far too much lube...just a little on the fingers is plenty for several cases), prime, load powder and bullets. My workshop has the tumbler next to an open window where I leave it to chug on for perhaps 30 to 40 minutes, sometimes longer. I wear a face mask when entering, switch off and leave for a further hour before returning with nitrile gloves and the mask to deal with the media and cases.

That's about as much as I do personally, but don't know, as it's unscientific beyond knowing it's toxic stuff, whether I should be doing more to limit any effects on health. The related subject includes barrel cleaning. How many, I wonder, bother with gloves? For years, I never bothered but now, reading what's in some of these cleaning agents (again, highly toxic in many cases) and repeated exposure to detonating compounds, lead and copper (both toxic) I shall be routinely wearing gloves and becoming less blasé about the whole thing.

Interesting post, thank you for raising the topic.

 

[long_range_rob]

Interesting thoughts but I suspect you’re more at risk from particulates from diesel fumes.

 

[timbrayford]

True, but it's the largely invisible clouds of fine dust particles, ventilated or not, where you're most at risk, especially when tumbling. Interestingly, one of the recent studies I read suggests that in a controlled experiment, where they split shooters up into those using lead bullets and those using copper, it was the copper bullet users who exhibited the higher respiratory toxicity levels from the results of the internal/muzzle ballistics effects. They also cite that copper littering the countryside is more toxic to things like trees, where it's long since been known that copper has a detrimental effect on tree growth and can kill younger trees, plus is equally as toxic to some other flora and fauna. As often the case with all these regulatory changes, the rush to copper hasn't been thought through in sufficient detail.

Just out of curiosity, how did they screen out external environmental factors that were nothing to do at all with bullets?

 

[ChesterP]

haven't got a clue and that's a valid point. I guess that they were looking for specific compounds.

 

[NP435]

Simple solution, don't eat or drink where primer dust and lead are, wear PPE gloves, dust mask, wash after handling lead or other ammunition related items. Control dust from case cleaning materials. It isn't all that hard to reduce or eliminate exposure to toxic items.

 

[Bo Diddley]

Interesting thoughts but I suspect you’re more at risk from particulates from diesel fumes.

Yep diesel & petrol deposits laid on the road are some of the most carcinogenic substances any of us will come into contact with. Poor old tarmac boys have it hard!

 

[ChesterP]

Diesel fumes are nasty, but we're seeing more small petrols and EVs now and fewer new diesels as general run abouts. Petrol compound carcinogens I'm unsure about in terms of threashold levels but the bad old days of stuffing loads of Benzyne into unleaded were dealt with and the formulae restricted to less than 1% since when exposure levels are now very low. I'd still wear nitrile gloves though when topping up chainsaws and wash hands after sloshing petrol about.

I only raised the shooting exposures because relatively few studies are available and we're dealing with highly toxic compounds such as Lead styphnate which is listed under REACH Regs by the EU as "A Substance of Very High Concern" with this noted on the information card for it:

Danger! According to the harmonised classification and labelling (CLP00) approved by the European Union, this substance may damage the unborn child and is suspected of damaging fertility, is very toxic to aquatic life, is very toxic to aquatic life with long lasting effects, is harmful if swallowed, is harmful if inhaled and may cause damage to organs through prolonged or repeated exposure.


It further raises interestng questions what you wet tumbler guys do with the wash water....down the drain is probably where it mostly goes, and guess where that ends up? Back into the water cycle. WTW using PAC or similar filters may deal effectively with it but not all do use carbon filters. Some as waste water gets disharged into combined sewers and may end up in streams and rivers. All food for thought.

Those shooting regularly at indoor ranges may be at elevated risk from fumes and dust, but all of us using tumblers and handling spent cases will come into contact either directly with the residue or as a fine dust from tumbling. Yes, you can keep the lid on but you have to remove the cases which necessarily disturbs and releases this dust in close proximity to you which is why it's recommended that gloves and a face mask (FP3 rated) are used. The lack of studies doesn't mean there's no evidence backing up how toxic this stuff is, as that's plentiful. It's just a heads up to the uninitiated possibly new to reloading and shooting to be aware and take what precautions you think necessary for your likely exposure. I have a fine dust extractor (to sub 3 microns) in my workshop which filters this stuff out of the enclosed space anyway but I still use facemask and gloves.

 

[One on top of two]

It’s been know for quite a few years about the crap that dry tumbling with walnut media and alike throws all sorts it crap. Into the air. If you want to see it for yourself next you use your tumbler turn lights off and shine the edge of torch beam over the top and your see it. Very crude experiment but works.

Just one of the many reasons I moved over to wet tumbling and a air drier years ago.

 

[ChesterP]

I will get over to wet tumbling at some stage I think. I now have the vents covered on my Lyman Turbo tumbler and use it in my workshop with the room's dust extractor (air cleaner) running whilst and after tumbling. Mitigating risk as much as possible but now well switched onto the issues with it, and safely discard media once I've had around 300 cases through each batch.