Friday Contemplation - Ideal short barreled forrest deer rifle and calibre?

[VIGILAIRE]

Current go to shorty is a Parker Hale scout in .308. My poor photography makes it look much longer than it actually is, not the world's lightest as the barrel is a short semi target type. At the moment it wears a Hawke Endurance 1-4 x 24 duplex with a red dot in Leupold rings. Using Privi 180gr SP's which work well.

 

[Ade8mm]

What about getting something like this?



26" brrls but shorter OAL than my 20" barrel Steyr Mannlicher .243 (ear-plugs are a good idea though!)
Return to zero claw-mounts. Quick back up shot if you get charged by an angry Muntjac. What's not to like?
Shop around, you might be surprised what you can get for less than many bolt action rifles for sale on here.
(8 x 60r)
Downside - very much akin to a small Naval Cannon being fired so if you have neighbours and wish to avoid upset, maybe not the best for early morning Summer stalking.

 

[petlowe]

What about getting something like this?

View attachment 262788
View attachment 262789
26" brrls but shorter OAL than my 20" barrel Steyr Mannlicher .243 (ear-plugs are a good idea though!)
Return to zero claw-mounts. Quick back up shot if you get charged by an angry Muntjac. What's not to like?
Shop around, you might be surprised what you can get for less than many bolt action rifles for sale on here.
(8 x 60r)

For me, would love it, the thing is complete porn, but for a wee 5’ lass who ain’t fond of recoil and big bangs am not so sure!

I got a friend offering her a road test with a .44 Mag 16” lever on the weekend, that will rule in or out non bolt based options.

 

[Ade8mm]

For me, would love it, the thing is complete porn, but for a wee 5’ lass who ain’t fond of recoil and big bangs am not so sure!

I got a friend offering her a road test with a .44 Mag 16” lever on the weekend, that will rule in or out non bolt based options.

A tad loud but recoil is no more than a lightweight 12 bore

 

[Sharpie]

Now that the Roe are currently hiding away and most of my stalking is in forests I am finding my 22" 308 decidedly unhandy for this style of shooting where it may be off hand or sub 60M where speed and stealth are the thing.
On an any budget basis what 16" barrel rifle / calibre would you be thinking about in the 1700 ft-lb range.

I know the season is short and I will be missing it but I am actually enjoying itt for what it is.

Since we are required to have at least 1700 foot-pounds energy for Roe in England/Wales, I'm pretty sure that suggestions of e.g. 7.62x39, 6.5 Grendel etc aren't going to manage that in a 16" barrel, nor even in longer barrels.

They simply don't have enough powder capacity, apart from other considerations.

Regrettably I must also advise that say a 20" barrelled Marlin 336C levergun, such as I have, cannot quite do it with factory ammo either. but it can with handloads. Maybe that legality wouldn't concern you. I'm quite sure it would in reality be effective on Roe and other small deer.

With factory 30-30 ammo in a 20" barrel, realistically you might expect not much more than 1500 fpe, rather than the manufacturers' data all of which is measured in 24" barrels. Plus it shoots a blunt nosed bullet which has poorer external ballistics than an equivalent spitzer. Much as I like mine I'm under no illusions that it is much more than a 100 yard rifle, maybe 150 at most.

Whereas a cut down bolt action rifle in 7-08 or 308 can, from even as short as a 16" barrel.

As can say a Bergara BA13 Kipplauf. Their 20" barrelled 308 is much shorter than an equivalent bolt gun because it basically has no receiver.

35" long, before you fit a moderator, reflex style would add about 4" to that. They also do the 308 version in 18" and 16.5", commensurately shorter. However these have an 8" twist instead of the 12" of the 20" barrel. I'm not sure how that might affect things. Seems more suited to things like 300 Blackout. Which they also make in those shorter lengths. , seems like they are just chambering the Blackout barrels for 308 instead, which might not be ideal. Plus shooting factory 308 ammo in say the 16.5" barrel may not be ideal. Muzzle flash and very loud.

My Marlin 336C in 30-30 by comparison is 38.5" long. Unmoderated obviously.

So, to me a 20" 308 Bergara BA13 looks ideal.-Full potential with its 20" barrel, and if you handload could even consider downloading it to just over 1700 fpe for a sweet low recoil less damaging load for woodland stalking of Roe and other small deer.

A quick scan of Guntrader shows that the 20" stainless steel 308 is available from stock for about £600 (before negotiation). Get your variation sorted out quickly (shouldn't be too difficult since you already have a 308) and you could have it in time to enjoy the rest of the roebuck season. Same ammo too, and similar drops etc., which has to be a plus.

Lever actions are beloved of many in the USA for their capacity for five or six shots in the magazine and rapid fire capability, plus top off as you go along. Shh, don't tell anyone, also here, where they are the fastest way to loose off centrefire rounds that we are still allowed. But, really , for stalking, surely we can cope with a single shot break action, or a bolt gun with maybe three in the magazine.

Then there is the question of the forthcoming lead ban, as and when it is decided. With a 308 there should be little concern about that. Whereas with say a 30-30, yes, copper ammunition is available at least in the US, even reloading components, but I rather doubt that these will become readily available in the UK anytime soon.

As for a levergun in 45-70, Ruger are now making their 16.5" barrelled trapper though if/when it ever appears in the UK I'd not like to guess and it will be very expensive.. I expect it to be about 34.5" long. Threaded for a moderator, but that would have to be a longer muzzle can, not a reflex design. And realistically it would almost certainly not be legal in Scotland, despite obviously having plenty of muzzle energy. But maybe not the necessary velocity, 2450 fps, from such a short barrel, even with handloads.

However if you did manage to, with say a 300gr bullet, that would deliver a massive 4000 fpe. That would surely kick.

So, to summarise, a short barrelled 16" or so bolt action in the 308, 7-08 class with moderator

A 20" barrelled Kipplauf in say 308 with or without moderator.

Just maybe a 30-30 or 45-70 lever action, no moderator. But bear in mind the limitations, and I'd be hesitant to use my 30-30 on anything bigger than a fallow, at maybe 100 metres.

A few links discussing those two chamberings

.30-30 Winchester (.30 WCF )

.45-70 U.S Government

 

[Muir]

Since we are required to have at least 1700 foot-pounds energy for Roe in England/Wales, I'm pretty sure that suggestions of e.g. 7.62x39, 6.5 Grendel etc aren't going to manage that in a 16" barrel, nor even in longer barrels.

They simply don't have enough powder capacity, apart from other considerations.

Nope. I own several of both.
My 120 grain Grendel loads @ 2685 fps top 1900 ft/lbs from a 22 inch barrel.
My 7.62x39 123 grain loads doing 2505 fps top the 1700 ft/lb. from an 18" barreled CZ.
Why is everyone judging both of these by a 16 inch barrel? I agree it's a handy length but I didn't read where this was requisite.~Muir

 

[Sharpie]

Nope. I own several of both.
My 120 grain Grendel loads @ 2685 fps top 1900 ft/lbs from a 22 inch barrel.
My 7.62x39 123 grain loads doing 2505 fps top the 1700 ft/lb. from an 18" barreled CZ.
Why is everyone judging both of these by a 16 inch barrel? I agree it's a handy length but I didn't read where this was requisite.~Muir

The OP was specifically looking for a 16" barrelled rifle.
something short and handy to use in woodland, where he is finding his 22" 308 unwieldy.

"I am finding my 22" 308 decidedly unhandy for this style of shooting where it may be off hand or sub 60M where speed and stealth are the thing. ... On an any budget basis what 16" barrel rifle / calibre would you be thinking about in the 1700 ft-lb range."

He has also not indicated whether he intends to reload. Over here I'd also suggest that 6.5 Grendel, or even 7.62x39 would be difficult to come by, in suitable hunting loads.

Somebody suggested a Ruger American Ranch in 7.62x39, 16 1/8" barrel. I am certain that would not be suitable, probably neither would a 6.5 Grendel. I also did a quick skim of Best 7.62x39 Ammo For Hunting Deer & Other Big Game and quickly concluded that factory ammo was unlikely to do much better than 1500 fpe, barrel length unspecified (I'm guessing this was factory data from 24" test barrels).

Some comparative numbers from a bit of Googling:

300 Blackout case capacity 19.2 gr H20
6.5 Grendel 35.0
7.62x39 35.6
30-30 WIN 44.5
243 WIN 54.25
308 Winchester 56.0

Out of interest I took a look at Vhitavuori load data for the 6.5 Grendel. This is measured in 24" test barrels. Here are their max. loads for a 123 gr bullet: I daresay they can be worked up a bit beyond that.

N130 2444 fps. 1631 fpe.
N530 2503 fps 1710 fpe.
N135 2431 fps. 1613 fpe

You are doing well to be getting 2685 fps. 1921 fpe. from a 22" barrel. E.g. Hornady claim 1818 fpe. for their 123gr SST round. 24" barrel.

Likewise 7.62x39, again a 24" test barrel, 123 gr bullet.

N110 2136 fps. 1246 fpe.
N120 2336 fps. 1490 fpe.
N130 2379 fps. 1545 fpe.

But you are managing 2505 fps. 1713 fpe. from a six inch shorter barrel ? I wonder what powder you are using ? That sounds like a pretty warm load to me. Hornady only claim 1508 fpe. for their "Black", loaded with 123gr SST. Very close to the top Vit. load of N130.

I rest my case that neither 7.62x39 nor 6.5 Grendel are realistically large deer legal in anything but normal length barrels, unless you are prepared to hand load them pretty warm. Of these two the Grendel appears to be the better bet. In fact the only one that might work with factory ammo.

FWIW, here is what Hornady have to say about 30-30 Winchester, again presumably from a 24" barrel. They claim 2046 fpe. for their 160gr FTX, 1889 fpe. for 140gr MonoFlex copper ammo, and even 1902 fpe. for their ordinary 150gr American Whitetail ammo.

Even humble PPU 30-30 150gr FSP ammo is advertised at 1885 fpe. and costs only £16/box here.

Which is why I am quietly confident that a 20" barreled 30-30 is probably OK.

I often read that 7.62x39 and 30-30 are very similar as deer rounds, but I really can't see that myself. 1500 fpe vs. 1900, with a heavier bullet. At least out to 100-150 yards. I can see the Grendel as being interesting though. But none of these in e.g. a 16" barrel. Whereas say a 20" barreled Kipplauf in 308, or even 243, would definitely work, whilst still being very short and handy. Bergara make BA13s for both of these.

 

[Laurie]

Since we are required to have at least 1700 foot-pounds energy for Roe in England/Wales, I'm pretty sure that suggestions of e.g. 7.62x39, 6.5 Grendel etc aren't going to manage that in a 16" barrel, nor even in longer barrels.

The Grendel will achieve this level (c. 2,530 fps with a 120gn bullet) in a 20-inch barrel with judicious powder choice. Not with the max loads in US manuals though as they're limited by the very low SAAMI maximum pressure of 52,000 psi dictated by the widespread use of the AR-15 platform in the USA and in which bolt strength is pushed to the limit by this cartridge with its larger case-head diameter compared to the 223 Rem the action was designed for. CIP has a higher maximum running at close to 60,000 psi and this is usable in conventional bolt-actions such as the Savage, CZ, and Howa.

Incidentally, how many 243 Win (or American 6.5X55mm for that matter) factory loads achieve 1,700 ft/lb ME in 16-inch barrels?

 

[Muir]

The OP was specifically looking for a 16" barrelled rifle.
something short and handy to use in woodland, where he is finding his 22" 308 unwieldy.

"I am finding my 22" 308 decidedly unhandy for this style of shooting where it may be off hand or sub 60M where speed and stealth are the thing. ... On an any budget basis what 16" barrel rifle / calibre would you be thinking about in the 1700 ft-lb range."

He has also not indicated whether he intends to reload. Over here I'd also suggest that 6.5 Grendel, or even 7.62x39 would be difficult to come by, in suitable hunting loads.

Somebody suggested a Ruger American Ranch in 7.62x39, 16 1/8" barrel. I am certain that would not be suitable, probably neither would a 6.5 Grendel. I also did a quick skim of Best 7.62x39 Ammo For Hunting Deer & Other Big Game and quickly concluded that factory ammo was unlikely to do much better than 1500 fpe, barrel length unspecified (I'm guessing this was factory data from 24" test barrels).

Some comparative numbers from a bit of Googling:

300 Blackout case capacity 19.2 gr H20
6.5 Grendel 35.0
7.62x39 35.6
30-30 WIN 44.5
243 WIN 54.25
308 Winchester 56.0

Out of interest I took a look at Vhitavuori load data for the 6.5 Grendel. This is measured in 24" test barrels. Here are their max. loads for a 123 gr bullet: I daresay they can be worked up a bit beyond that.

N130 2444 fps. 1631 fpe.
N530 2503 fps 1710 fpe.
N135 2431 fps. 1613 fpe

You are doing well to be getting 2685 fps. 1921 fpe. from a 22" barrel. E.g. Hornady claim 1818 fpe. for their 123gr SST round. 24" barrel.

Likewise 7.62x39, again a 24" test barrel, 123 gr bullet.

N110 2136 fps. 1246 fpe.
N120 2336 fps. 1490 fpe.
N130 2379 fps. 1545 fpe.

But you are managing 2505 fps. 1713 fpe. from a six inch shorter barrel ? I wonder what powder you are using ? That sounds like a pretty warm load to me. Hornady only claim 1508 fpe. for their "Black", loaded with 123gr SST. Very close to the top Vit. load of N130.

I rest my case that neither 7.62x39 nor 6.5 Grendel are realistically large deer legal in anything but normal length barrels, unless you are prepared to hand load them pretty warm. Of these two the Grendel appears to be the better bet. In fact the only one that might work with factory ammo.

FWIW, here is what Hornady have to say about 30-30 Winchester, again presumably from a 24" barrel. They claim 2046 fpe. for their 160gr FTX, 1889 fpe. for 140gr MonoFlex copper ammo, and even 1902 fpe. for their ordinary 150gr American Whitetail ammo.

Even humble PPU 30-30 150gr FSP ammo is advertised at 1885 fpe. and costs only £16/box here.

Which is why I am quietly confident that a 20" barreled 30-30 is probably OK.

I often read that 7.62x39 and 30-30 are very similar as deer rounds, but I really can't see that myself. 1500 fpe vs. 1900, with a heavier bullet. At least out to 100-150 yards. I can see the Grendel as being interesting though. But none of these in e.g. a 16" barrel. Whereas say a 20" barreled Kipplauf in 308, or even 243, would definitely work, whilst still being very short and handy. Bergara make BA13s for both of these.

Sorry I missed the 16" part. Still, I feel that a good "woodland's rifle" should be more judged on bulk and ease of handling more than length. ~Muir

 

[Smellydog]

It is very interesting how the silly UK law wipes out many suitable cartridges more than capable of the job. As generations come and go we are finding now how some find themselves believing they need cartridge of near magnum performances to kill a deer at a national average range which if is over 100yds it's not by much more at all!
When I think how many deer must of fallen to the wee hornet! Then comes along some expert and tries to tell thousands that it's no good!
Laughable really and sad all at the same time.

 

[Foxyboy43]

It is very interesting how the silly UK law wipes out many suitable cartridges more than capable of the job. As generations come and go we are finding now how some find themselves believing they need cartridge of near magnum performances to kill a deer at a national average range which if is over 100yds it's not by much more at all!
When I think how many deer must of fallen to the wee hornet! Then comes along some expert and tries to tell thousands that it's no good!
Laughable really and sad all at the same time.

Yep. Totally daft. Shoot roe legally in one part of the UK with a round that is not deer legal in another next door. Nuts!
As an aside I suspect the 30-30 has accounted for more deer than most if not all other calibres in the US.

 

[Laurie]

I suspect the 30-30 has accounted for more deer than most if not all other calibres in the US.

The old 44WCF (44-40 as it's usually called) is traditionally said to have killed more game in the USA than any other cartridge. That's not a recommendation for that design, rather a reflection of the huge numbers of deer available during the cartridge's heyday from the 1870s through to WW1 whose numbers had by that time fallen disastrously through over-hunting. (Yes, I know the far superior 30-30 appeared in the 1890s, but the sheer numbers of existing 44 rifles almost certainly kept the cartridge in a predominant position for many years.) It's also said to have wounded more game than any other American cartridge. That may not have been just its ballistics as from what I've read, the most widespread method of deerhunting in that era was to drive woodlands and the riflemen stood in a line and shot offhand at running game. ME of this basically revolver cartridge was less than half of the Deer Acts' requirements and solid lead bullets were almost invariably used.

 

[HandB]

My short rifle is a Sauer 202 in .308 with an 18 inch barrel. I highly recommend it as it handles brilliantly, is fast to cycle but is accurate to decent range and produces approx 2460 ftlbs with a 180gr bullet traveling at approx 2480fps muzzle velocity. Recoil is quite snappy but it has a high quality recoil pad which makes it tolerable.

 

[alberta boy]

I've shot a number of deer with 30/30 WCF and 7.62X39 , out of longer than 16 inch barrels mind you . I can't honestly say that there isn't much difference between them under hunting conditions . I used the same shot placement at about the same ranges , but the reaction was virtually identical . They didn't travel far , about 10 yards + or - , with very similiar wound channels . There is a difference on paper , but real world performance , for me at least , is pretty much the same . The same can be said for a broad range of cartridges . I tend to use my Savage 219 single shot more than my 7.62X39 chambered rifles , not because it's ballistically superior , I just like pointy , light , little single shots . Just to muddy the waters a little more , the guy I bought the Savage from used it to , pretty much exclusively , shoot a fair number of Moose and Black Bears . According to some , the 30/30 is totally inadequate for these animals , but when used by an experienced game shot within its range limitations , it is a reliable killer on big game . UK regulations , however , preclude the use of a lot of these cartridges .

AB

 

[welshwarrior]

Sorry I’d missed the 16” part but with a mini action you save most of the extra barrel length an 18” 527 will be about the same length as a 16” T3 etc.

 

[Foxyboy43]

Short and great knockdown power?
Deadly accurate, widely available and cheap as chips - 43 inches overall of 8mm - the pocket rocket, a mauser made on german machinery and with reputedly better materials than the original german version; something to do with a little local trouble in 1939/45 I believe.....
I give you the Yugo Mauser, next question?

 

[petlowe]

What side of Tito’s troubles did it serve on?

Looks like it’s hunted a lot more than deer..

 

[@theroedeerguy]

Some feedback and evidence of the 7mm SAUM in action here…….

 

[VIGILAIRE]

Already flagged up by xavierdoc - Marlin 45/70 Dark Edition suppressor ready.....

 

[Foxyboy43]

What side of Tito’s troubles did it serve on?

Looks like it’s hunted a lot more than deer..

Likely all sides - Tito and much further afield! Mine is an absolute tack driver using Sierra Prohunter 150gns and with the long eye relief (pistol) scope but I am pursuing getting it tapped for a “proper” scope which will likely require the bolt handle being further bent to clear the scope tube. For interest:-
“In 1953, the M48 rifle was exported to Burma. The M48 rifle has also been exported to Algeria, Chad, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Egypt, Iraq and Syria. It was used in the Algerian War of Independence (1954-1962), the Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990), the Iraq-Iran War (1980-1988), the War in Yugoslavia (1991-2001) and the last one at civil war in Syria (2011-). As such, the M48 saw use in the Yugoslav Wars, thousands being used by various militias[4] or paramilitary forces.[5] Often the M48 was used as the basis for a sniper rifle, drilled and tapped for the ZRAK 4x32 telescopic sight and mounts.[6] However, other than an experimental batch of approximately 4000 rifles, no official M48 sniper rifle was ever fielded by the Yugoslav Army.[7]

Egypt bought M48As to diversify its suppliers in the 1950s.[8] Syria purchased M48A[9] and M48BO rifles.[10] Indonesia, Iraq, Burma, Algeria and Chad also received some.[2] In the 1980s, Syria sent surplus M48s to pro-Syrian Lebanese factionsduring the Lebanese Civil War.[11]

In 2018 Polish Border Guard obtained 44 rifles for ceremonial purposes due to its physical similarities with Polish pre-WW2.”.

Superb value for money rifle and will drop anything in the UK with some authority.