Confused- new calibre on open certificate...

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Outandabout-goneshooting

Well-Known Member
Hi All,

Can anyone make head or tail of the following please... I need to ask the FEO about it, but want to make sure I'm having an informed conversation.

Have held .243 and various other smaller calibres for some time now on an open certificate- usual conditions- Deer, fox and AOLQ. Recently applied for a variation for a .308 in addition to the others for boar control on a private farm which I have written permission for (only 60 acres, but has some good sloping ground and ponds/ wallow pits with step sides to allow for a good backstop and safe shots) and fair play- it was granted no problem by the FEO. I specifically asked if I can have it as an "open calibre" on certificate straight away and he said yes- no problem given experience. However, he then said that I would need to get the farm cleared for .308 calibre, but because it's on another force area, they would have to do it. I did question at the time, and he said because it's a relatively small area for a .308, that would be the reason for getting it cleared.

He then said, if I have written permission for another area of ground (I do for 400 acres and it's cleared for .338), then I can use it there straight away there as it's clear for 308 and I have an open certificate.

My question if not already obvious is: Surely the point of an open certificate is so that the responsibility for judging if the ground is suitable is down to me? I'm not sure why the new farm would have to be cleared for .308 if I have an open condition on that calibre straight away. Do I recall something from a member on here a while ago about having a "primary permission" even though the certificate is open so they know you have somewhere safe to shoot? My "primary" permission is a 14 acre area of woodland cleared by the FEO years ago when I had my .243 granted. I still go there once a week.

In case anyone asks, yes i'm 100% certain the certificate is open and yes I am 100% certain he said I could have the .308 open straight away.

Anyone else come across this or shall I suggest that he may be misinterpreting the guidance?

Thanks for any constructive thoughts...
 
I had a bit of ground cleared for .308 ( my only ground cleared for this) which was the basis for my .308 being made open. So I would say speak to them and say you want it open as you have ground cleared for up to .338 and fingers crossed that's all it should take
 
Is the jist of this, that they need to have a piece of land cleared for the calibre you are asking for to show reasonable need/justification for that specific calibre on a at least one piece land with the species justifying the need - regardless of whether you will have it on an open cert.
I experienced similar when I asked for a deer calibre of an open cert, I vaguely recall that approach ties with the guidance…. Although can’t remember the specific wording
 
Last edited:
Tf223 said:
Is the jist of this, that they need to have a piece of land cleared for the calibre you are asking for to show reasonable need/justification for that specific calibre on a at least one piece land with the species justifying the need - regardless of whether you will have it on an open cert.
I experienced similar when I asked for a deer calibre of an open cert, I vaguely recall that approach ties with the guidance…. Although can’t remember the specific wording
Click to expand...
If you have an open certificate you do not need a piece of ground cleared for any calibre. Some police forces require this but it is not required in the guidance or law.
 
Outandabout-goneshooting said:
Hi All,

Can anyone make head or tail of the following please... I need to ask the FEO about it, but want to make sure I'm having an informed conversation.

Have held .243 and various other smaller calibres for some time now on an open certificate- usual conditions- Deer, fox and AOLQ. Recently applied for a variation for a .308 in addition to the others for boar control on a private farm which I have written permission for (only 60 acres, but has some good sloping ground and ponds/ wallow pits with step sides to allow for a good backstop and safe shots) and fair play- it was granted no problem by the FEO. I specifically asked if I can have it as an "open calibre" on certificate straight away and he said yes- no problem given experience. However, he then said that I would need to get the farm cleared for .308 calibre, but because it's on another force area, they would have to do it. I did question at the time, and he said because it's a relatively small area for a .308, that would be the reason for getting it cleared.

He then said, if I have written permission for another area of ground (I do for 400 acres and it's cleared for .338), then I can use it there straight away there as it's clear for 308 and I have an open certificate.

My question if not already obvious is: Surely the point of an open certificate is so that the responsibility for judging if the ground is suitable is down to me? I'm not sure why the new farm would have to be cleared for .308 if I have an open condition on that calibre straight away. Do I recall something from a member on here a while ago about having a "primary permission" even though the certificate is open so they know you have somewhere safe to shoot? My "primary" permission is a 14 acre area of woodland cleared by the FEO years ago when I had my .243 granted. I still go there once a week.

In case anyone asks, yes i'm 100% certain the certificate is open and yes I am 100% certain he said I could have the .308 open straight away.

Anyone else come across this or shall I suggest that he may be misinterpreting the guidance?

Thanks for any constructive thoughts...
Click to expand...
If your certificate is 100% open (not just the calibre which would be odd) then stop worrying about it, you can shoot wherever you deem safe.

What do the conditions on your certificate say?
 
The clearance of land, as said above is totally unnecessary when you have a fully open certificate. As has been said if you already have land cleared for .338 there should be no issue for a .308 to be opened as you have suggested , on approval, as an additional rifle. Get your cert (with open .308) and then tell them you intend to shoot on the 60 acres and as your cert is open and safety your responsibility.
I have had a .308 for many years and this year, for the first time an officer said I could keep my .308 since the land I have for deer has been cleared to a close but lesser calibre. This is complete rubbish, if the land has deer, and you have permission and an open cert, it cannot then revert to maybe you can keep it -the Police are overstepping the mark in either ignorance of HO guidance or as a means to further restrict the ownership of firearms. Every incident should be challenged. I also pay for stalks elsewhere so how could such a system work ?
 
is it not the case you must have one piece of land cleared/suitable for that calibre for it to be on your certificate, or paid stalking say, to justify the need for that calibre? e.g i have an open ticket but that would not justify the purchase of a 50cal just on the bases that the ticket is open.
 
Not clear
Outandabout-goneshooting said:
Hi All,

Can anyone make head or tail of the following please... I need to ask the FEO about it, but want to make sure I'm having an informed conversation.

Have held .243 and various other smaller calibres for some time now on an open certificate- usual conditions- Deer, fox and AOLQ. Recently applied for a variation for a .308 in addition to the others for boar control on a private farm which I have written permission for (only 60 acres, but has some good sloping ground and ponds/ wallow pits with step sides to allow for a good backstop and safe shots) and fair play- it was granted no problem by the FEO. I specifically asked if I can have it as an "open calibre" on certificate straight away and he said yes- no problem given experience. However, he then said that I would need to get the farm cleared for .308 calibre, but because it's on another force area, they would have to do it. I did question at the time, and he said because it's a relatively small area for a .308, that would be the reason for getting it cleared.
He then said, if I have written permission for another area of ground (I do for 400 acres and it's cleared for .338), then I can use it there straight away there as it's clear for 308 and I have an open certificate.
Click to expand...

Not clear from your OP if you've actually got your new cert back with the 308 on it - sounds that way.

If so, what does it say specifically for the 308?
 
Reloader708 said:
I've always thought it strange that land passed for say .243 is not safe for .308.
I cant think of a single instance where I've passed on an unsafe shot wishing I'd only had a different caliber then I could have blazed away.
An unsafe shot is unsafe regardless of caliber!
Click to expand...
Exactly what my first FEO said to me when he opened my cert, if I’d shot safely with a WMR for a year I’d be safe with anything as a safe shot is a safe shot
 
Liveonce said:
is it not the case you must have one piece of land cleared/suitable for that calibre for it to be on your certificate, or paid stalking say, to justify the need for that calibre? e.g i have an open ticket but that would not justify the purchase of a 50cal just on the bases that the ticket is open.
Click to expand...
No it is not the case that you have to have land cleared, the guidance simply says that the licensing dept must satisfy themselves the land in question is not ‘clearly unsuitable’ i.e. the middle of a shopping centre or village
 
If your FAC is 'open' that means YOU can decide if it is safe to use a particular caliber or not.
However, if your FEO insist on 'clearing' a permission despite your Licensing Manager having granted you an 'open' FAC then I would be totally pragmatic and go along with that. Let him/her 'clear' it (or not clear it...) , and one day you may hear from him/her. Most likely you won't hear from them again, once they realise their mistake.
What matters is what it says on your FAC signed by the highest Boss -and the Boss of the FEO- of your Force.
 
Outandabout-goneshooting said:
only 60 acres, but has some good sloping ground and ponds/ wallow pits with step sides to allow for a good backstop and safe shots
Click to expand...
I agree with others that an open cert is just that so it should not need "clearing". I also like you logic re backstops.

However it might be that you've ( inadvertently?) highlighted the 60 acres is the primay permission for the 308. And given it's small, he is now questioning your judgement, hence the interest in "clearing it".

Your comments above given the impression it's an established shoot. If so, then presumably it is already cleared by the local force for .30 cal. by the owner, who may have some paperwork put the FEÒ a essy.

Might be worth checking that before you call the FEO.
 
Liveonce said:
is it not the case you must have one piece of land cleared/suitable for that calibre for it to be on your certificate, or paid stalking say, to justify the need for that calibre? e.g i have an open ticket but that would not justify the purchase of a 50cal just on the bases that the ticket is open.
Click to expand...
It's not the ticket that's open, it's the individual calibre. So you might, for example, have a 222 with open conditions and a 308 with closed conditions.
 
25 Sharps said:
No it is not the case that you have to have land cleared, the guidance simply says that the licensing dept must satisfy themselves the land in question is not ‘clearly unsuitable’ i.e. the middle of a shopping centre or village
Click to expand...
indeed so are they not checking that the land in question that the OP has used to justify the .308 is not clearly unsuitable?
 
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