BASC calls for independent regulatory body for firearms licensing

[cjm1066]

If we get a regulatory body, let's hope it's more use than the Police & Crime Commissioners - probably the most useless layer of (well paid) bureaucracy ever imposed k us.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

First, such a regulatory body, when challenging a Chief Con over practice would meet the " I am allowed to do what I think is appropriate for my area - my area is different from others." - Two thoughts spring from this, first you have to remove the absolute interpretive opportunity for a Chief Constable.
You do that by removing the function or allowing no interpretation as in STATUTORY Guidance for which any departure would result in a successful challenge. (BASC need some help with Judicial review).
There always exists the opportunity to move resources if the function remains with a larger organisation where there are other critical objectives - Firearms Licensing has to be a single function and best away from the Police in my view.
You talk of massive culture change in the Police - compare this with how women police struggle, equality isn't the best, male (police) criminals go unpunished, as we have seen.
So you need a new culture and a new screening process - points very firmly to a new organisation.
Internal service level agreements are managed internally and from experience become extremely 'flexible' whilst missing the initial point of the 'service' wording.
The Police do not and will not accept stakeholder involvement - they call police fora, "community involvement" but, again in my experience these fora degenerate to the Police listening, making the small changes like where some resources are allocated but otherwise do nothing.
The idea of a central policy unit is flawed in that it is 'internal', either within the force or within the government of the police service - there will always be other priorities the Chief Constable will need to address and thus central policy becomes the 'will' of the Chief Con.
'Inspection' is not good enough by existing means - would descrimination against women still be an issue, liaison and action with local councils ?
You have seen how the police 'service' changes itself to keep the same, ACPO and NPCC - one and the same.
The police service is feudal and now partly paramilitary and still government has not properly got to grips with how to remain in control of Police 'Services' whilst ensuring local accountability.
Police services remain the Fiefdoms of Chief Constables who act as a second level of political control - NPCC e.g. so regional control and amalgamation will bring in to play the combined worst of two Chief Constables - not necessarily the 'best of both worlds'.
I believe the POLICE want to do a good job, they however do not have the training which is in a single budget - where would Chief Constable's priorities lie. I don't believe they are properly resourced within what has been made available for the purpose - virement from one budget head to another is commonplace - strikes/terrorism/and so forth mean that FL which results in few (and maybe 'acceptable') problems ARE DOWN THE QUEUE.
So, the future is grab more resources (as ever), mismanage training budgets (as far as we are concerned) continue to interpret loose rules to tighten areas where resources are thin.
BASC policy here is absolutely WRONG. This is not the way to improve licensing for either the public or honest legitimate shooting people.

WE need an independent SERVICE which has a fixed budget, has trained staff and statutory GUIDANCE which is NOT open to interpretation or flexibility. It needs to be outside the 'control' of the police with its own standards regulatory body - We also need the facility and the WILL for shooting orgs to make accountability stick through the courts of law (JUDICIAL REVIEW -sadly lacking).

This is one service to a relatively small group of almost exclusively honest, hard-working, law-abiding people who are the kind of people you might want as friends. Let us make Shooting highly regarded and apply high standards by agreement with shooting people. Has anyone ever achieved that recently ? N.B. YOU WONT ACHIEVE THAT WHILST POORLY TRAINED POLICE ARE MANAGED FOR A WIDER RESPONSIBILITY UNDER POLITICAL CONTROL as part of a fiefdom which manages their promotion prospects as part of ensuring all are 'on - message'.

It seems conclusive to me - a new single agency, maybe housed and paying 'rent' in local police buildings but absolutely out of Police overall control under a Secretary of State's responsibility. I cannot see how BASC can support their position when Chief Constables have clearly stated they want to see guns removed from all civilians. Better they focus their minds directly on removing the guns from law- breakers and that very real threat to "public safety."

Come on BASC show some leadership not more of the same.

God help us.

I agree - there is still merit in considering a single agency (for England and/or Wales), its something I have written about online and in the BASC magazine and indeed discussed on this forum previously (to a mixed reaction). Also in the mix is a Home Office firearms licensing fees review.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

What a load of BS who wrote that. All them points are already in place but not worded in that manner.

The fact is that there are huge inconsistencies across police forces working to the same statutory and non-statutory guidance and fees structure and the feedback we are getting is that police forces should be held to account for ineffective and poor service, as exposed in BASC's 2022 report.

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2022/08/Firearms-licensing-report.pdf

For example:

• There are 13 forces which, despite Covid, managed to turn around renewals and grants in between 38.5 and 70 days, the average being 54 days. These forces were Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire, Hertfordshire (the three forces combine in a consortium), Cleveland, Cheshire, Essex, Gloucestershire, Gwent, Kent, Lincolnshire, Merseyside, Thames Valley Police (TVP) and Warwickshire.
• These 13 forces also managed to process applications and renewals from between 15.8% and 25.1% of their certificate holders, the average being circa 20%. This is the percentage one would expect to be processed given a five-year certificate. Worryingly, several forces with severe backlogs processed well below this figure, raising the question as to what plans are in place to eliminate that backlog. It is difficult to see how this will be achieved without such remedial action. Examples include Cumbria, Dorset and Northumbria who processed less than 11% of their applications and renewals.
• In those forces where the budget figures appeared realistic, the cost to process each certificate was between £87.24 and £521.99. The average cost was £181.12, but this is somewhat meaningless given the huge variation.
• Seven of the 13 forces with the best turnaround times managed to process certificates at a cost of between £118.71 and £194.87 with an average cost of £140.96.
• Analysis of TVP’s budget, where comprehensive data was available, would suggest that the revenue from certificates covered roughly 50% of the cost of the FLD. This is significant, as the financial report for 2020/21 for TVP shows that some 56% of its overall budget is in the form of Home Office grants.
• The number of certificates processed per staff member varied from 76.3 to 583. Again, the variation is huge. If, however, one looks at the 13 forces with the best turnaround times, ten have an average number of certificates processed per staff member at 207.15.
• Police Scotland issued 99.35% of firearm and shotgun certificate renewals prior to their expiry dates.
• The most recent firearms licensing figures released by the Home Office in July 2022, show that since the year before the Covid pandemic there has been an 8% reduction in the total number of firearm and shotgun certificates held in England and Wales. This represents a loss of over 47,000 certificate holders. That 8% reduction must be, in part, due to the failure to process new grants in a timely manner.

 

[finnbear270]

Police Scotland issued 99.35% of firearm and shotgun certificate renewals prior to their expiry dates. Might this be a demonstration of a one force office being a better option?

 

[enfieldspares]

The fact is that there are huge inconsistencies across police forces working to the same statutory and non-statutory guidance and fees structure and the feedback we are getting is that police forces should be held to account for ineffective and poor service, as exposed in BASC's 2022 report.

Has any cost been given of the cost of each force (where the role is also done by a "Firearms Department") of the cost of issuing an explosives licence for a commercial blasting company, as well as a homeloader with blackpowder, and the cost of issuing a liquor licence?

Has BASC asked such as, above, as to which "Firerams Department" also issues these other documents and licences?

Has BASC asked the method used to work out the cost of issuing such licences? Or is it the case that the overall budget of each "Firearms Department" has been divided by the number of FACs and SGCs issued to give such a cost?

What revenue was received from paid applications for variations? And, again, what was the cost of such and how was it worked out?

For these folks do their checks gratis. free, zilch, nada and I'd say that a fireams home security visit check on cabinets, alarm, door locks and window access is not that different from a Fire Brigade "home safety check"? The below were the first two "hits" on Google but it makes the point. These checks are free!

Home fire safety visits

Find out what is a Home Fire Safety Visit, who can get one, and how to arrange a visit.

www.firescotland.gov.uk

Home Fire Safety

If you live in Merseyside, you can phone 0800 731 5958 for free fire safety advice or to request a Home Fire Safety Check visit, where free fire safety advice will be given, including the importance…

www.merseyfire.gov.uk

Given that firearms licences are meant to protect the public and not to benefit the actual firearms owner then why do we "pay" (in that it is costed against issuing such licences)? But that when a home fire safety check that is solely for the private benefit of the homeowner is carried out it is free?

 

[8x57]

Carrying out Home fire safety checks are part of the statutory duties of the fire and rescue services. For a number of years they have been tasked with reducing the number of fires and road traffic collisions with consequential deaths and injuries by 10% year on year. I don't think it would be fair to say that it's purely for the benefit of the homeowner, it's for the benefit of the whole community.
The financial cost to the community was also considered when these targets were set.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Has any cost been given of the cost of each force (where the role is also done by a "Firearms Department") of the cost of issuing an explosives licence for a commercial blasting company, as well as a homeloader with blackpowder, and the cost of issuing a liquor licence?

Has BASC asked such as, above, as to which "Firerams Department" also issues these other documents and licences?

Has BASC asked the method used to work out the cost of issuing such licences? Or is it the case that the overall budget of each "Firearms Department" has been divided by the number of FACs and SGCs issued to give such a cost?

What revenue was received from paid applications for variations? And, again, what was the cost of such and how was it worked out?

For these folks do their checks gratis. free, zilch, nada and I'd say that a fireams home security visit check on cabinets, alarm, door locks and window access is not that different from a Fire Brigade "home safety check"? The below were the first two "hits" on Google but it makes the point. These checks are free!

Home fire safety visits

Find out what is a Home Fire Safety Visit, who can get one, and how to arrange a visit.

www.firescotland.gov.uk

Home Fire Safety

If you live in Merseyside, you can phone 0800 731 5958 for free fire safety advice or to request a Home Fire Safety Check visit, where free fire safety advice will be given, including the importance…

www.merseyfire.gov.uk

Given that firearms licences are meant to protect the public and not to benefit the actual firearms owner then why do we "pay" (in that it is costed against issuing such licences)? But that when a home fire safety check that is solely for the private benefit of the homeowner is carried out it is free?

Thanks, I will pass on your observations and suggestions to the firearms team.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

And if this "independent regulator" decides on an interpretation of the Home Office Guidance that is harsher, stricter, less liberal that that interpretation give by police authority A or authority B?

But in line with the most restrictive interpretation of authority L (let's say Lincolnshire) and its insistence before any other force jumped on that bandwagon of 100% medical input) what then has BASC gifted us ALL?

More aggro, more refusals to vary, renew or grant and yet a toothless tiger at Marford Mill that has removed its legal insurance from its members benefits and (let's say Lincolnshire) as it can't even be bothered to fund a judicial review against a single police constabulary probably won't have the guts to take on such against this new body that now makes policy for them all?

What do I smell? I smell a stink of BASC empire building to try to peddle BASC accredited FEO training courses, that's what I smell! So let me ask here and now does BASC have any intention now or in the future of considering offering on its menu any sort of training courses for FEOs? Yes or No?

No, I think that would be for the College of Policing but would you agree that it would be important for BASC to have input to the process on behalf of certificate holders given its expertise and experience?

BASC already delivers police training on firearms licensing and wildlife law. For example an update from last year is here:

Training the enforcers

BASC's regional and national teams are offering practical firearms and wildlife management training free of charge to police forces across the country.

basc.org.uk

BASC has for many years called for a recognised training standard for staff involved in firearms licensing and an accreditation would help to achieve this. So, it was interesting to hear discussion during the policing priorities inquiry that firearms licensing officers should be annually accredited and assessed by the College of Policing, and we will ensure our views are fed into that process.

More info below:

College of Policing plans will improve firearms licensing, says BASC

The College of Policing is exploring an annual assessment and accreditation for firearms licensing officers in England and Wales.

basc.org.uk

As per my unanswered reply to your assertions/query above do you have any thoughts/feedback on whether it would be important for BASC to have input to the process on behalf of certificate holders given its expertise and experience?

 

[enfieldspares]

As per my unanswered reply to your assertions/query above do you have any thoughts/feedback on whether it would be important for BASC to have input to the process on behalf of certificate holders given its expertise and experience?

All input from BASC would be welcomed if, and only if, it consulted with its members beforehand. Which clearly it did not do regarding lead shot and nor did it do so with the trade. I think that many are now questioning of whether BASC is motivated by what is best for BASC rather than what is best for BASC's members. And thank you for taking on my comments regarding fire safety checks.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

All input from BASC would be welcomed if, and only if, it consulted with its members beforehand. Which clearly it did not do regarding lead shot and nor did it do so with the trade. I think that many are now questioning of whether BASC is motivated by what is best for BASC rather than what is best for BASC's members. And thank you for taking on my comments regarding fire safety checks.

I understand where you are coming from on this and BASC is making policy decisions on a daily/weekly/monthly basis with consultation responses and public statements on policy developments and so on - and BASC Council has oversight on all of this - and as members we elect our Council members and Council appoints advisory committees chaired by Council members whose primary purpose is policy development.

BASC Council elections and AGM

Two new members of BASC Council were elected at the Association's AGM on 18 May 2024.

basc.org.uk

I recall many years ago, before the advent of Facebook etc, an idea prompted by this very forum to create a 'Have Your Say' section on the BASC website for various policy issues and we did that for some time and the interaction was poor with far more time spent asking for views that receiving views.

When I write blog posts or magazine articles for BASC on policy issues I usually provide my email address for feedback. Feedback is few and far between and most appreciated when received.

I regularly ask for feedback in this forum on policy developments. Putting aside the obsessed BASC bashers much of that feedback comes from a handful of people including your good self who represent the <1% wanting to interact with policy issues. That is valuable and that is why I continue to engage in this forum.

That said, if you have a proposal that you think would work efficiently and effectively for greater membership engagement on policy development please do email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk and I can take that up with colleagues on your behalf.