Choosing Lead-Free Bullets

[PhilRS03]

Just to add quickly, in terms of Legal muzzle energy for UK deer stalking (1700ft ibs) a quick, TRUED comparison of the 130gr Barnes TSX Vs the 130gr Virtus Merlin- the merlin dips below 1700ft ibs at 186m, the Barnes dips below it at 129m. Even MV wise, it’s at 2,450fps at just 118m. (171m for the Merlin). That’s a difference of nearly 60m, INSIDE of 200m just for muzzle energy requirements. That figure, whether agreed upon or not and noting that arguably you don’t need 1700ft ibs of energy to kill a deer, that is hopefully an illustration of terminal effect at its most basic level, at what I’d consider a very average stalking range.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Just to add quickly, in terms of Legal muzzle energy for UK deer stalking (1700ft ibs) a quick, TRUED comparison of the 130gr Barnes TSX Vs the 130gr Virtus Merlin- the merlin dips below 1700ft ibs at 186m, the Barnes dips below it at 129m. Even MV wise, it’s at 2,450fps at just 118m. (171m for the Merlin). That’s a difference of nearly 60m, INSIDE of 200m just for muzzle energy requirements. That figure, whether agreed upon or not and noting that arguably you don’t need 1700ft ibs of energy to kill a deer, that is hopefully an illustration of terminal effect at its most basic level, at what I’d consider a very average stalking range

You really do need to get out more

I have been on the website and had a look at the merlins and to be honest i am not even going to entertain them as i dont like the way they expand, they scream to me meat damage and big holes!

I’ll stick to my Barnes TTSX until you post some pictures of a selection of some chest shot deer, with the skin on and off, then we can have a constructive conversation

 

[PhilRS03]

You really do need to get out more

I have been on the website and had a look at the merlins and to be honest i am not even going to entertain them as i dont like the way they expand, they scream to me meat damage and big holes!

I’ll stick to my Barnes TTSX until you post some pictures of a selection of some chest shot deer, with the skin on and off, then we can have a constructive conversation

Amen to that!!!

Absolutely, I may only be able to do high single figures (depending on how the weekend goes), but will be in comparison to the 130gr Sierra game changer- that’s what the guy I’m out with shoots. If I can get hold of some 130gr TSX’s between now and then, I’ll load a few of those and see if I can’t do a live comparison. Can’t say fairer than that!

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Amen to that!!!

Absolutely, I may only be able to do high single figures (depending on how the weekend goes), but will be in comparison to the 130gr Sierra game changer- that’s what the guy I’m out with shoots. If I can get hold of some 130gr TSX’s between now and then, I’ll load a few of those and see if I can’t do a live comparison. Can’t say fairer than that!

I will look forward to that

 

[viking90]

Won't be buying anything made outside of USA, even with supply chain worries, the likes of Hornady, Nosler, Barnes etc. are not shutting their doors tomorrow. They also provide pressure tested load data and in some cases a reliable ballistic model instead of a vague figure.

In the case of 'boutique' manufacturers, they could shut their doors tomorrow and the scramble for scraps is not worth it. Look at GS Custom from South Africa.

Also, if something is imported from halfway round the world and is still cheaper after shipping and tax than a UK made product, something has gone wrong.

Like I've said before, 8p per bullet..thats how much the material costs to make a 150gr 30 cal projectile, even less the more copper you buy. Getting a small batch made instantly puts it between £7 and £10 per projectile. I know because I've drawn them up and sent out for quotes. It's getting to the point where it's actually going to be cheaper to buy my own machinery. If I could find a reasonably priced machinist I'd swap to copper in a heartbeat

 

[Heym SR20]

It’s great to see that bullet conversations are going back to normal.

Go back five years and you will see endless arguments over whether a Speer was better than a Hornady Softpoint and somebody would throw in that you really needed an SST, or Partition or whatever.

And then along came copper and in the eyes of some they were brilliant, abd in the eyes of others - just crap, work of the he who recently got sacked from Autumn Watch and would be the end of deer stalking.

Now we are back to business as usual and debate is whether a Virtus is better that a Barnes

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

It’s great to see that bullet conversations are going back to normal.

Go back five years and you will see endless arguments over whether a Speer was better than a Hornady Softpoint and somebody would throw in that you really needed an SST, or Partition or whatever.

And then along came copper and in the eyes of some they were brilliant, abd in the eyes of others - just crap, work of the he who recently got sacked from Autumn Watch and would be the end of deer stalking.

Now we are back to business as usual and debate is whether a Virtus is better that a Barnes

I am full open to conversation but by christ the virtus had big boots to fill and i need to see some proper compelling evidence before i even think about it!

I admire @PhilRS03 passion about them but i need good solid evidence that their not going to blow big holes in carcasses!

My barnes load performance is exactly the same be it munty or red so lets see what happens here.

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

I am full open to conversation but by christ the virtus had big boots to fill and i need to see some proper compelling evidence before i even think about it!

I admire @PhilRS03 passion about them but i need good solid evidence that their not going to blow big holes in carcasses!

My barnes load performance is exactly the same be it munty or red so lets see what happens here.

@Norfolk Deer Search - here you go, this was the last deer shot by myself with the .30 150 Virtus Merlin’s, they kill well and I do believe everything @PhilRS03 has said is matched by the deer I’ve shot with them.

This was an estimated impact velocity of 2419 FPS on a Roe doe.



The damage is similar to that of a Hornady SST in my findings: can be brutal close in but reasonably well behaved further out.
I don’t think it would be the bullet of choice for close range woodland deer where ranges will always be low, but as an open ground bullet where the ranges would be more extended it would be a good choice.

I do also think we need to be careful that we don’t put the Barnes on a pedestal here, their performance is consistent but even they, close in on small deer, can make a mess (as any bullet can). This below is a roe I shot with a 130 TTSX at approx. 40m - not a small exit wound for sure, about the same as I got with the Merlin when I used it at close range.



Ben

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

@Norfolk Deer Search - here you go, this was the last deer shot by myself with the .30 150 Virtus Merlin’s, they kill well and I do believe everything @PhilRS03 has said is matched by the deer I’ve shot with them.

This was an estimated impact velocity of 2419 FPS on a Roe doe.

View attachment 294121View attachment 294122

The damage is similar to that of a Hornady SST in my findings: can be brutal close in but reasonably well behaved further out.
I don’t think it would be the bullet of choice for close range woodland deer where ranges will always be low, but as an open ground bullet where the ranges would be more extended it would be a good choice.

I do also think we need to be careful that we don’t put the Barnes on a pedestal here, their performance is consistent but even they, close in on small deer, can make a mess (as any bullet can). This below is a roe I shot with a 130 TTSX at approx. 40m - not a small exit wound for sure, about the same as I got with the Merlin when I used it at close range.

View attachment 294125

Ben

If the damage is like the SST you can keep them!

i have shot the ttsx for a very very long time, most of the time people have big holes from Barnes because they’re going too quick!

My 130 grain load for my 270 was only doing 2900 ish which is very mediocre.

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

If the damage is like the SST you can keep them!

Horses for courses as always.

You wouldn’t choose an F1 car to drive around town in - doesn’t mean it’s crap, just isn’t useful for what you want!

Virtus do a more controlled expansion bullet in their Osprey which may be more what you’re looking for.

Ben

 

[PhilRS03]

If the damage is like the SST you can keep them!

i have shot the ttsx for a very very long time, most of the time people have big holes from Barnes because they’re going too quick!

My 130 grain load for my 270 was only doing 2900 ish which is very mediocre.

I know you’re still awaiting results, but the TSX (once it drops below it’s required impact velocity of around 1800fps or 386 meters on a 6.5 starting at 2730fps to be precise!) just drills a nice neat hole and does sod all terminally. Just one to be aware of, I know it’s not a consideration for most stalkers due to the ranges involved, but the merlin still expands down to 800fps. For pure interest, that’s 1536 meters… Just a nice to know! Agree on the Osprey front, likely a better choice depending on circumstance!

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

I know you’re still awaiting results, but the TSX (once it drops below it’s required impact velocity of around 1800fps or 386 meters on a 6.5 starting at 2730fps to be precise!) just drills a nice neat hole and does sod all terminally. Just one to be aware of, I know it’s not a consideration for most stalkers due to the ranges involved, but the merlin still expands down to 800fps. For pure interest, that’s 1536 meters… Just a nice to know! Agree on the Osprey front, likely a better choice depending on circumstance!

Have you shot a living animal at that range?

Or you still talking gongs?

 

[PhilRS03]

Have you shot a living animal at that range?

Nope, and nor would I, unless it shot at me first!

 

[308tikka]

Muntjac or red there is no difference in my opinion, the only this is price you get from the dealer!

exactly. Bugger all for MJ

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Nope, and nor would I, unless it shot at me first!

So where you gathering your wealth on knowledge on that one then?

 

[webley701]

Can I ask what degree of accuracy you were after, I don’t target shoot so don’t know the precision required?

With respect - you do shoot a target - presumably a live one.

 

[PhilRS03]

So where you gathering your wealth on knowledge on that one then?

Well I mean the ranges I gave were to try and get the point across ballisticaly, I know your head is well and truly buried in the sand when it comes to learning stuff! Based on my personal setup (A 6.5-284 custom job with a NF NX8 T3, and Virtus bullets), I’d have no issue about having a crack at a fox out to 1000m. It’s hit or miss there, literally. I know you think shooting steel is irrelevant (it’s not, at all) but it gives a good measure of kit capability and your general shooting capability (wind reading etc). Based on what I’ve physically shot, group size wise with Virtus bullets through another rifle in 6.5CM and having seen the shot to shot consistency in BC and stuff, I’m more than confident to stretch its legs.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Well I mean the ranges I gave were to try and get the point across ballisticaly, I know your head is well and truly buried in the sand when it comes to learning stuff! Based on my personal setup (A 6.5-284 custom job with a NF NX8 T3, and Virtus bullets), I’d have no issue about having a crack at a fox out to 1000m. It’s hit or miss there, literally. I know you think shooting steel is irrelevant (it’s not, at all) but it gives a good measure of kit capability and your general shooting capability (wind reading etc). Based on what I’ve physically shot, group size wise with Virtus bullets through another rifle in 6.5CM and having seen the shot to shot consistency in BC and stuff, I’m more than confident to stretch its legs.

For the last 20 odd years all i have done is kill deer and fox, paper is for load development and to check zero and nothing more and gongs don’t even come into as i see it as a waste of a good bullet.

I have shot nothing but copper since 2008, I squeeze the trigger deer fall over that all i need to know!

I am not interested in all the ballistic bollocks, if want to shoot a deer at 300 i will, i know what my drops are at range, i dont change bullet just because i am shooting further out.

Your set up is alien to me, i am a mere simpleton, but a practical one!

I will look forward so seeing your carcasses with and without the jacket.

 

[Too Deer]

Thats all very marvellous, go shoot 100-200 deer then please report your findings.

Until then I’ll stick to what i know works.

I was really excited when i read the guy had shot 3000 of these bullets, but lost all enthusiasm when i read most of them were on steel gongs.

Steel gongs dont breathe, bleed or run!

Forgive my ignorance but as deer stalkers is the not what we need to know?

I have shot that number of deer with Virtus projectiles, mostly with the Merlin, a few with the Eagle, and 1 or 2 with the Osprey.

Prior to moving to Virtus, I shot 130gr Sierra Gamechangers and 130gr TSX.

The Gamechangers were exceptionally accurate but also exceptionally brutal. They caused too much meat damage for my liking.

Intermittent availability aside, Barnes TSX caused much less meat damage but were nowhere near as accurate as the Gamechangers. For the pests amongst you, we're taking 0.2 MOA Vs 1.2 MOA.... Nothing horrendous but enough for me to consider other options, especially given my thoughts regarding shot placement with such projectiles.

For me, the Virtus Merlin represents something in between; exceptional accuracy without the violence of the Gamechangers; especially since reducing the MV slightly. Of course they fragment but other than a spaniel-sized late Fallow fawn that was shoulder shot, I've yet to have a complaint from the game dealer.

However as I mentioned in my OP, they are not for everyone. It's clear that there are plenty of people on SD who have a similar view to my F-I-L; "I've already found the perfect bullet for me so, why would I fart about trying anything new?". That's a perfectly reasonable conclusion to reach but perhaps it pays to be mindful of the resultant gaps in knowledge/experience when forging our opinions.

...... definitely wish I'd thought of that last line when big JP chucked mine back at me.... Would have gone down a lot better than "well I guess I'll just go f*ck myself then"

 

[PhilRS03]

For the last 20 odd years all i have done is kill deer and fox, paper is for load development and to check zero and nothing more and gongs don’t even come into as i see it as a waste of a good bullet.

I have shot nothing but copper since 2008, I squeeze the trigger deer fall over that all i need to know!

I am not interested in all the ballistic bollocks, if want to shoot a deer at 300 i will, i know what my drops are at range, i dont change bullet just because i am shooting further out.

Your set up is alien to me, i am a mere simpleton, but a practical one!

I will look forward so seeing your carcasses with and without the jacket.

It terrifies me that people like you are allowed to own guns.

This is my first 12hr exposure to social media in years, and I’ve realised how lucky I’ve been not being a part of it.

Keep doing what you’re doing, I hope to meet you in person one day and have a chat about this subject. Until then, I’m outta here.

And as for declaring yourself as a simpleton, that’s probably the only sensible thing you’ve said all day.