The Guardian on deer numbers and the re-introduction of wolves.

[308rws]

If a pack of privately owned dogs brought down a wild deer and tore it apart limb from limb there would be public outrage and the potential for prosecution under The Hunting Act 2004, Animal Welfare Act 2006 etc. 21st Century British society has democratically decided that the killing of wild animals under such circumstances is both immoral and illegal.

Yet Monbiot and others who advocate for the reintroduction of wolves believe that (red) death by tooth and claw is an acceptable method to control UK deer. Regardless that wolves would represent an inherent hazard to agricultural livestock, domestic pets and potentially to the public.

If death by tooth and claw is an acceptable deer control technique, surely any judge would conclude that it would be far safer to use regulated hound packs under human supervision. So by unintended consequence, Monbiot makes the case for repealing the Hunting Act.

The arrogance, irony and immorality is crass!

Oh and another thing. Under the Deer Act 1991, when “reduced into possession” a culled deer is the property of the landowner. Therefore, who'll be paying the compensation for these 500,000 shredded deer?

 

[AGR]

if Monbiot is serious about controlling the growing deer population in the UK then he also needs to come up with an answer to controlling the problem of deer in urban, peri-urban and semi-rural areas.

This is particularly pertinent. I have seen several photos, probably on FB, of many hundreds of fallow feeding and resting on semi rural industrial estates. What exactly is done (legally) to control these herds?

 

[JTO]

Another bucket list species.

 

[angusb1]

I think the reason Monbiot and the rest of the rewilders don't worry about wolves, bears (and the other apex predators they would like to reintroduce) killing livestock and pets is because they are of the opinion that the only meat any of us should be eating should be grown on a collagen scaffold and we shouldn't have pets because it is cruel to the poor cats/dogs/bunnies etc.

 

[VSS]

Another bucket list species.

Wait a few years and it might work out a lot cheaper without having to pay for a trip abroad.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Goldsmith has just been on Radio 4 to champion reintroduction but was nicely savaged by the Spokesperson for UK farming.

K

 

[Roebuck9]

A well qualified Wally taught by those with about the same level of qualified stupidity . I feel ! Number 1 is the wolves will do all the stupid and distinctly un-athletic sheep etc and such and then starve or get run over .

Trained as a zoologist at Oxford and has been an investigative journalist on environmental matters all over the world.

George Monbiot - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Yes similar to Packam and Jeremy Clarkson of the Automotive world who keep making these rash statements, it keeps your name to the fore with those of equal lack of brain cells which then gets them more money for their next lecture/talk.

They hope nobody will notice the rational pros and cons. it just means more money for them.

 

[bottletopbill]

But as he got anything right yet

 

[Cyres]

Epping forest might be a good place to start. Too many fallow and no agreed control plan. Locals can watch wolves catch deer in their back gardens. Would also cure the local moggy population so save some wild birds. Win win!

 

[RescueMe0007]

We brought wolves back in the Yellowstone Basin, now the moose and elk are taking a real beating, they breed like rabbits( wolves) and expand their range. Big mistake to bring them back. Control measures for the wolf population are brought to court

I watched a very interesting article referencing the reduction of Elk and Moose in the areas of Yellowstone affected by the introduction of wolves. Initially there appeared to be a strong correlation between the presence of wolves and the decline in these large herbivores. A great deal of focus went into the impact of the wolves. Very many studies and evidence later, it was established that the wolves were NOT the causal factor at play. It has been established that the decline of the herbivores lay at the door of ...... wait for it, Lake Trout! How in the name of God could that be true? The trout are hardly preying on Elk and Moose. Quite true!
The investigations revealed that Lake trout had been mysteriously introduced to Yellowstone Lake (to which they are NOT indigenous), where they had promptly thrived. They fed on the native cutthroat trout and catastrophically reduced their numbers. The knock on effect was that the cutthroat trout were no longer running up the tributary streams in their thousands to spawn each spring. This had previously been a significant source of food for the bear population in the spring when they had come out of hibernation, ravenous and seeking to replenish their bodies. Apparently, the cutthroat trout spawning run had accounted for about 75% of the bears diet at that time of the year historically. Deprived of this nutrition the bears turned to predation on the Elk & Moose calves which had been dropped around the same time in the birthing grounds, in the same areas, to make up the shortfall. Thus the bears were heavily impacting the survival rate of the newly born calves and massively increasing their attrition rate. Obviously, this reduced the elk & moose population and produced the collapse in herbivore numbers.
I am not a fan of rewilding ( the law of unintended consequences applies), but the cause and effects of things in nature are seldom as simple and straight forward as the ecological warriors espouse!

 

[chriswjx]

I watched a very interesting article referencing the reduction of Elk and Moose in the areas of Yellowstone affected by the introduction of wolves. Initially there appeared to be a strong correlation between the presence of wolves and the decline in these large herbivores. A great deal of focus went into the impact of the wolves. Very many studies and evidence later, it was established that the wolves were NOT the causal factor at play. It has been established that the decline of the herbivores lay at the door of ...... wait for it, Lake Trout! How in the name of God could that be true? The trout are hardly preying on Elk and Moose. Quite true!
The investigations revealed that Lake trout had been mysteriously introduced to Yellowstone Lake (to which they are NOT indigenous), where they had promptly thrived. They fed on the native cutthroat trout and catastrophically reduced their numbers. The knock on effect was that the cutthroat trout were no longer running up the tributary streams in their thousands to spawn each spring. This had previously been a significant source of food for the bear population in the spring when they had come out of hibernation, ravenous and seeking to replenish their bodies. Apparently, the cutthroat trout spawning run had accounted for about 75% of the bears diet at that time of the year historically. Deprived of this nutrition the bears turned to predation on the Elk & Moose calves which had been dropped around the same time in the birthing grounds, in the same areas, to make up the shortfall. Thus the bears were heavily impacting the survival rate of the newly born calves and massively increasing their attrition rate. Obviously, this reduced the elk & moose population and produced the collapse in herbivore numbers.
I am not a fan of rewilding ( the law of unintended consequences applies), but the cause and effects of things in nature are seldom as simple and straight forward as the ecological warriors espouse!

So, what I'm getting from that is we need to introduce bears as well then?

 

[del.gue]

I had the misfortune to have to listen to R4 this morning. (Not something i usually do).
There was a discussion about renitroducing wolves to control deer. The main thrust being from Ben Goldsmith (Zacs brother)?
He seems to think that wolves will only target the very fast running deer species, and not the slow, lumbering, woolly, meals on legs that are the local farms sheep!
You couldnt make this cr*p up!

 

[Foxyboy43]

I had the misfortune to have to listen to R4 this morning. (Not something i usually do).
There was a discussion about renitroducing wolves to control deer. The main thrust being from Ben Goldsmith (Zacs brother)?
He seems to think that wolves will only target the very fast running deer species, and not the slow, lumbering, woolly, meals on legs that are the local farms sheep!
You couldnt make this cr*p up!

You can add ponies to the list - apparently…

A wolf killed the EU president’s precious pony - then the fight to catch the predator began

After being hunted to near extinction, wolves have returned to Europe. But when one killed Ursula von der Leyen’s family pony, it ignited a high-stakes battle. Are the animals’ days numbered?

www.theguardian.com

 

[sikamalc]

This guy must be related to the chap on Alladale estate, Paul Lister?

He had the same idea. Guess where that ended up, in the bin. I attended the first meeting at the estate, in which one of the so called experts claimed that they would release Wolves onto the estate. But that the fence, they intended to put up, and have, would keep them in.

Having put my hand up at that meeting, as my lease at the time bordered their estate, I told them that 6ft of driven snow against the fence in winter in the highlands would soon see your captive wolves roaming freely around the highlands of Scotland. Going by the looks on Paul Listers face at the time, I dont think he liked me too much.
Needless to say no Wolves have ever been introduced. And they never will be in the UK. So Mr Monbiot is talking out of his arse.

 

[purdeydog]

Not read the article but It would be great to have wild wolves roaming about Scotland. Fantastic animal.

 

[Mt Al]

I watched a very interesting article referencing the reduction of Elk and Moose in the areas of Yellowstone affected by the introduction of wolves. Initially there appeared to be a strong correlation between the presence of wolves and the decline in these large herbivores. A great deal of focus went into the impact of the wolves. Very many studies and evidence later, it was established that the wolves were NOT the causal factor at play. It has been established that the decline of the herbivores lay at the door of ...... wait for it, Lake Trout! How in the name of God could that be true? The trout are hardly preying on Elk and Moose. Quite true!
The investigations revealed that Lake trout had been mysteriously introduced to Yellowstone Lake (to which they are NOT indigenous), where they had promptly thrived. They fed on the native cutthroat trout and catastrophically reduced their numbers. The knock on effect was that the cutthroat trout were no longer running up the tributary streams in their thousands to spawn each spring. This had previously been a significant source of food for the bear population in the spring when they had come out of hibernation, ravenous and seeking to replenish their bodies. Apparently, the cutthroat trout spawning run had accounted for about 75% of the bears diet at that time of the year historically. Deprived of this nutrition the bears turned to predation on the Elk & Moose calves which had been dropped around the same time in the birthing grounds, in the same areas, to make up the shortfall. Thus the bears were heavily impacting the survival rate of the newly born calves and massively increasing their attrition rate. Obviously, this reduced the elk & moose population and produced the collapse in herbivore numbers.
I am not a fan of rewilding ( the law of unintended consequences applies), but the cause and effects of things in nature are seldom as simple and straight forward as the ecological warriors espouse!

I live in the middle of all this and the above may be true, and there's no doubt the non-native lake trout have had a terrible impact on cut throat. However, I'm not ashamed to be skeptical of wolf and bear related research and inaccurate past "emergency findings" on the number of wolves required for a sustainable population, laughable predictions of grizzly and wolf population crashes from innumerable causes, impact on cattle, white bark pine moths, etc..

Everything must be a crisis around Yellowstone Park all the time, that's all we need to know.

Regardless: the predictions of the anti-wolf crowd didn't come true either. There are plenty of elk and herds are more wide spread and healthy, somewhat due to wolf reintroduction. Moose populations are another thing and no one's going to publish one known cause of declines in certain areas of the state.

Did coyotes or smaller wolves, like the Eastern Red Wolf, ever roam on your beautiful island home? They don't (yet) possess the environmentalist's near-spiritual worship of big Candian wolves; not as romanitic looking, no one buys "coyote" art and no one seems to care if they get shot. I hear them outside my home every night. Coyote-like Eastern Red Wolf-sized predators would do serious deer population control in the UK and, in my totally non scientific opinion, would adapt well. I hope it never happens to you though.

In the US the urban leftist elite decide what happens in rural America. It doesn't impact them and they get to feel like they're saving the world from rural dolts. I suspect it's the same in the UK.

 

[Klenchblaize]

In the US the urban leftist elite decide what happens in rural America. It doesn't impact them and they get to feel like they're saving the world from rural dolts. I suspect it's the same in the UK.

It is.

K

 

[angusb1]

The odd thing about the idea of reintroducing an "apex predator" to deal with the deer population is that it overlooks the fact that wolves/bear/lynx (delete as appropriate) aren't actually apex predators, we are. An apex predator is a predator species which has no predators. The firearm-equipped human is the apex predator in the UK ecosystem and should remain so because we are the only predators capable of effectively reducing deer numbers without predating upon livestock, pets and other humans.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

The odd thing about the idea of reintroducing an "apex predator" to deal with the deer population is that it overlooks the fact that wolves/bear/lynx (delete as appropriate) aren't actually apex predators, we are. An apex predator is a predator species which has no predators

By that simplistic definition bacteria or viruses are the apex predator, not humans.

Which is the Apex predator of all the Bacteria ? I'm voting for The Sh!ts. Then we just need to decide on Virus'- I'm saying HIV kicks the ass out of The Flu.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

My issue with rewilding is every time man thinks he understands the situation and knows better than nature and makes a change. Then when it doesn't work as planned- or there are unforseen consequences- the experts say "ahhhhh yes but now we understand- this time it will work"- and again there are unforseen consequences etc. Who knows what the knock-on effect of introducing predators would be.

Some kind of contraception seems the best method to me. Until then - shooting.

If predators are re-introduced then there will soon be a need to shoot them too. Sheep farming is a pain in the arse. I would buy land next to a wolf habitat- buy very cheap poor quality animals well past their best- smear them in Pedigree Chum and onion gravy and wait to collect my government payous when the inevitable happened. I bet Chinese tourists would pay to watch the bloodbath too. Way more profitable than farming....