Just to check, the Chief Constable of Police Scotland called you? Was this Sir Iain Livingstone before he left or Jo Farrell who has just taken over?
How much work is involved in a firearms certificate?
- Thread starter gixer1
- Start date
On the face of it, removing moderators would be a very sensible thing to do...
But.....
It's very easy to get a slot for a mod, and it's then very easy to get a free 141 to swap an empty mod slot for another rifle.....
So, careful what we wish for, as that little loophole works in our favour.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
Back in the day they used to be handwritten! Yes, really!
The real "scandal" is what the two Proof Houses charge for a deactivation certificate.
I took my car for an MoT last week, thirty minutes, up on a ramp, a check with a headlamp alignment machine, a check with an emissions machine, a check of the brakes on a rolling road and (at some parts of the test) two operatives needed to do that test. It cost £45 as a "walk in" with no prior appointment and took about twenty minutes to half an hour.
Now...what does the Proof House charge for a deactivation certificate? With a minimum charge of £48.30 for a examination that takes all of ten minutes of even that on, say, a deactivated side by side shotgun. And the equipment needed to do this? Little other than one person with a small diameter sharpened steel rod or screwdriver used almost like a dental pick to check the integrity of any weldments.
Here:
The real "scandal" is what the two Proof Houses charge for a deactivation certificate.
I took my car for an MoT last week, thirty minutes, up on a ramp, a check with a headlamp alignment machine, a check with an emissions machine, a check of the brakes on a rolling road and (at some parts of the test) two operatives needed to do that test. It cost £45 as a "walk in" with no prior appointment and took about twenty minutes to half an hour.
Now...what does the Proof House charge for a deactivation certificate? With a minimum charge of £48.30 for a examination that takes all of ten minutes of even that on, say, a deactivated side by side shotgun. And the equipment needed to do this? Little other than one person with a small diameter sharpened steel rod or screwdriver used almost like a dental pick to check the integrity of any weldments.
Here:
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dvbookshop
Well-Known Member
Richard Law (SRA) used to say that it could be done as the law requires in 10 minutes. Everything else is mission creep: unnecessary hassle just to make life difficult.Not to derail someone else’s thread - the fact we, as firearms holders accept a 6-12 month wait for a new certificate in some areas staggers me….how much actual hours of work can possibly go into a firearms certificate? From what I can see it would be -
Check through the forms for any errors. (1 hour)
Check background in police system and review social media accounts (2 hours?)
Call referees to discuss applicant (1 hour)
Call land owner to check applicant has land to use requested firearms on (1 hour)
Interview/visit applicant (3 hours)
Chief Constable review and sign (1 hour)
Print certificate (1/2 hour)
Now, I understand there are a pile of these to go through…and the timings can be different, but based on the 150k firearms holders in the U.K., over a 5 year or 60 month period and 46 firearms departments, that works out at 54 to process a month. (And I’m guess it’s not 1 person in each of these firearms departments that do all the work)
Surely this shouldn’t take 6-12 months or anything like it…I think my hours are likely conservative as I can’t see it taking an hour to review a form, although I understand some will take longer than others due to complications, criminal records etc…but Still, seems a little excessive.
I just think it’s a bit of a surprise that some consider it acceptable for the time it can take and are happy to say “well, you didn’t have it in 4 months in advance”…..
Regards,
Gixer
Sorry, my comment was misleading - It was a chap on his behalf a Mr. Crawford of the Governance, Audit and Assurance team. (Based in the isle of Skye I believe) at the request of Mr Livingstone.
Long story as to why!
ColinJ
Well-Known Member
Renewals get the same checks as a grant. A lot can change in your private life in 5 years.
You don’t appear to factor in abstractions for annual leave and sickness.
FEOs also inspect RFDs and Gun Clubs. If they are large establishments with huge inventories this could take days.
And then there are land checks, visiting the land and checking footpaths on ordnance survey maps.
You also don’t factor in what happens when something goes wrong, like a certificate holder being arrested for Domestic Abuse. How much time does that take?
And then there is the inevitable tea drinking. An FEO has to regularly drink tea, while reading the Stalking Directory.
There are a multitude of reasons why the FEOs don’t complete as many applications as you think they should.
You don’t appear to factor in abstractions for annual leave and sickness.
FEOs also inspect RFDs and Gun Clubs. If they are large establishments with huge inventories this could take days.
And then there are land checks, visiting the land and checking footpaths on ordnance survey maps.
You also don’t factor in what happens when something goes wrong, like a certificate holder being arrested for Domestic Abuse. How much time does that take?
And then there is the inevitable tea drinking. An FEO has to regularly drink tea, while reading the Stalking Directory.
There are a multitude of reasons why the FEOs don’t complete as many applications as you think they should.
White Spider
Well-Known Member
This is a great thread, there is a lot of maturity and understanding in the responses here in what appears to be a potentially very stressful job.
So we’re putting it down to the tea….
In all seriousness, the items such as checks of land etc. - do they often visit land? I am not aware of a single occurrence of this that I can remember. And if they do what makes them ballistically competent to say if land is acceptable when visiting? (Genuinely curious)
I can understand the variables such as domestic abuse etc, but as soon as someone has been convicted -surely that’s a collection of firearms and cert situation, which can be done by any officer?
Leave and absence should be covered the same as any job - people cover for you.
ColinJ
Well-Known Member
And these people that cover for you, where do they come from? And who does their work when they are covering? Do they just open a new box of FEOs?
The work load is managed accordingly….the same as any industry. Sometimes that is a few people covering…just depends on the workload.
Len the dog
Well-Known Member
You seem to have neglected the 522,000 SGC's currently held in the UK that also have to be processed by the same people. OK, some may also have a coterminous FAC but if they aren't coterminous then that doubles the workload. Even if ALL of the FAC holders also held an SGC, that would still leave 372,000 SGC's to process separately.
Then there are the 3000+ RFD's and 1000+ visitor's permits.
There are 43 FLD's in England & Wales, 1 department in Scotland & 1 in NI (I may be wrong on this bit). For arguments sake, if we take the base figure of 522,000 and assume that all FAC holders also have a coterminous SGC, that divides out to 11,600 licencees per force. If we further assume that they work Mon-Fri and get 8 statutory bank holidays, that leaves 253 working days (not allowing for annual leave or sick leave), and licences run for 5 years. That is still more than 9 licence grants/renewals to process every single working day by each department before they even think about variations etc.
Then there are the 3000+ RFD's and 1000+ visitor's permits.
There are 43 FLD's in England & Wales, 1 department in Scotland & 1 in NI (I may be wrong on this bit). For arguments sake, if we take the base figure of 522,000 and assume that all FAC holders also have a coterminous SGC, that divides out to 11,600 licencees per force. If we further assume that they work Mon-Fri and get 8 statutory bank holidays, that leaves 253 working days (not allowing for annual leave or sick leave), and licences run for 5 years. That is still more than 9 licence grants/renewals to process every single working day by each department before they even think about variations etc.
Yes…and? So what you are saying is the system is unfit for purpose and needs changed?
Len the dog
Well-Known Member
You're right about that bit.
I was simply highlighting that it should be of no surprise to anyone that processing takes so long and that there is a huge backlog.
@gixer1 your figures are way off.
figures as of March 2023;
147140 Firearms Certificates
500894 Shotgun Certificates
2822 RFD
1519 Visitor Firearms permits issued in year from April 22-March 23
4673 Visitor Shotgun permits "" "" "" ""
3106 S7 Firearm Certificates "" "" "" ""
8062 S7 Shotgun Certificates. "" "" "" ""
That is way more than the 54 per month per force, more like 54 per week just on Firearm, Shotgun and RFD renewals and grants per week based on a 5 year renewal period, and the other stuff is on top of that figure and then add variations on top of that.
Sorry Len, missed your post pointing this out
figures as of March 2023;
147140 Firearms Certificates
500894 Shotgun Certificates
2822 RFD
1519 Visitor Firearms permits issued in year from April 22-March 23
4673 Visitor Shotgun permits "" "" "" ""
3106 S7 Firearm Certificates "" "" "" ""
8062 S7 Shotgun Certificates. "" "" "" ""
That is way more than the 54 per month per force, more like 54 per week just on Firearm, Shotgun and RFD renewals and grants per week based on a 5 year renewal period, and the other stuff is on top of that figure and then add variations on top of that.
Sorry Len, missed your post pointing this out
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It's the new system. Teething problems and all that. The computer says: "Hang on a minute. I'll get back to you within a year or so."
It seems to me that the checks that are made for a certificate to be granted or renewed are far more searching and in depth than those they seem to do if you want to join the Met Police. I'm all for them being good and thorough, but taking a year to decide on a license that lasts only 5 years seems crazy.
Like most government departments, they will work out what staffing levels are needed to conduct the job on a normal day/week/year. They then employ that many people to do it. Then, all of a sudden, someone goes long term sick, there's a bit of a bottleneck in renewals or a couple of staff get pregnant. Then they find there's no slack in the system that can absorb these things. Then a couple decide to retire and, because they couldn't possibly have foreseen that, there's even more holes in the staffing levels (whoops, nearly typed manpower). What's more, many FEOs are part time jobs, filled with folk nearer to retiring altogether than not, mostly with other sources of income. So if things get a little too stressful, it's really not a great stretch to think some may well say "thanks but goodbye" more often than full time, younger employees who don't just like, but need the money.
It seems to me that the checks that are made for a certificate to be granted or renewed are far more searching and in depth than those they seem to do if you want to join the Met Police. I'm all for them being good and thorough, but taking a year to decide on a license that lasts only 5 years seems crazy.
Like most government departments, they will work out what staffing levels are needed to conduct the job on a normal day/week/year. They then employ that many people to do it. Then, all of a sudden, someone goes long term sick, there's a bit of a bottleneck in renewals or a couple of staff get pregnant. Then they find there's no slack in the system that can absorb these things. Then a couple decide to retire and, because they couldn't possibly have foreseen that, there's even more holes in the staffing levels (whoops, nearly typed manpower). What's more, many FEOs are part time jobs, filled with folk nearer to retiring altogether than not, mostly with other sources of income. So if things get a little too stressful, it's really not a great stretch to think some may well say "thanks but goodbye" more often than full time, younger employees who don't just like, but need the money.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
No, you roster sufficient resources to the role in the first place.
ColinJ
Well-Known Member
Sufficient resources? Have you followed anything about the cuts to police resources since 2009? It’s not a secret.
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