How much work is involved in a firearms certificate?

[gixer1]

Not to derail someone else’s thread - the fact we, as firearms holders accept a 6-12 month wait for a new certificate in some areas staggers me….how much actual hours of work can possibly go into a firearms certificate? From what I can see it would be -

Check through the forms for any errors. (1 hour)

Check background in police system and review social media accounts (2 hours?)

Call referees to discuss applicant (1 hour)

Call land owner to check applicant has land to use requested firearms on (1 hour)

Interview/visit applicant (3 hours)

Chief Constable review and sign (1 hour)

Print certificate (1/2 hour)

Now, I understand there are a pile of these to go through…and the timings can be different, but based on the 150k firearms holders in the U.K., over a 5 year or 60 month period and 46 firearms departments, that works out at 54 to process a month. (And I’m guess it’s not 1 person in each of these firearms departments that do all the work)

Surely this shouldn’t take 6-12 months or anything like it…I think my hours are likely conservative as I can’t see it taking an hour to review a form, although I understand some will take longer than others due to complications, criminal records etc…but Still, seems a little excessive.

I just think it’s a bit of a surprise that some consider it acceptable for the time it can take and are happy to say “well, you didn’t have it in 4 months in advance”…..

Regards,
Gixer

 

[finnbear270]

EERRrrr, Line one, (Insert errors below).

Firearms not owned / ammunition not used / needed / firearms owned but not listed yadayada.
My latest went back four times.

 

[sikamalc]

If its a new application there is a lot more work involved. Applicants to my knowledge are checked with NCA (national crime agency) probably Interpol, along with any other organisation to ensure they are not involved in any activities. This all takes time. I am not standing up for the serious delays with some constabularies, but pointing out that any new applicant is going to take longer. However, renewals, etc should take but a few weeks in my opinion.

 

[mealiejimmy]

The problem is, that like the fuel needed to make your car run, an FAC/SGC is a "distress purchase" and as such you are at the mercy of the seller/service provider.
Even worse, unlike buying fuel, there is no competition and only a single supplier
Even worse still, kicking up a stink about it will probably extend the process or may even result in a refusal
I agree that the whole process is poorly managed and run, but the bottom line is the lack of police resources and firearms licensing having a low priority compared to the other services the police are legally obliged to provide

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Rake Aboot]

Christ knows but my last renewal included 11 phone calls !

Thats some work

 

[Jon P]

Looking at your figures it is 9.5 hours per licence- average office work day is 7.5 hours so going into the following day- so probably 2 days a renewal if all going good- - if the FEO is also responding to email- phone enquiries- people sending application in late, or incorrect, people not renewing licences so sorting logging in handed firearms etc. FEO prob has 25 days annual leave a year, - days taken out for training/ illness . Wages are not the best so May not be multitasking in the office with jobs to get done. Data base issues - the list goes on.

 

[3595wilk]

Unfortunately the actual process is bogged down by other demands upon the time of a FEO. The desire to get more for less in the name of efficiency means that other tasks are often placed onto the workload of one.

For example, many FEOs have to make follow up enquiries on behalf of Border Agency when an individual who holds a FAC buys items that may be prohibited or indeed legal - and are seized by the Border Agency.

They also conduct other activities such as inspections of RFD premises and the requires checks.

Then there is the stuff that has nowt to do with their actual roles, but is required as part of their employment by a police organisation. There will be associated staff training that will be required in all sorts of interesting subjects such as data protection, health and safety, community awareness, law training/updates etc.

Finally, there's the 'life admin' that they have to do as part of their roles. Vehicle checks, form submission to say they have checked the vehicle, fuel purchase submissions, mileage forms, booking vehicles in for service or repair and arranging replacements etc.

I would say they probably only spend about 60% of their time sorting stuff directly associated with FAC applications and renewals.

The rest will be spent servicing the other stuff they are required to do by their organisation or had been dumped on them.

And no, I am not, or never have been a FEO, but understand how policing admin works.

Reality is, the actual system is broken. Lots of creep in roles and requirements have meant the process which should be relatively straightforward is now tortuous and cluttered.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Then there are the firearm variations to be added to the mix plus the refusal of a visitors permit that they did for me.

 

[gixer1]

If its a new application there is a lot more work involved. Applicants to my knowledge are checked with NCA (national crime agency) probably Interpol, along with any other organisation to ensure they are not involved in any activities. This all takes time. I am not standing up for the serious delays with some constabularies, but pointing out that any new applicant is going to take longer. However, renewals, etc should take but a few weeks in my opinion.

Would that not be an electronic database though? Whereby the applicants names are types in and it spits back a report? That surely cannot be that time consuming?

 

[gixer1]

Looking at your figures it is 9.5 hours per licence- average office work day is 7.5 hours so going into the following day- so probably 2 days a renewal if all going good- - if the FEO is also responding to email- phone enquiries- people sending application in late, or incorrect, people not renewing licences so sorting logging in handed firearms etc. FEO prob has 25 days annual leave a year, - days taken out for training/ illness . Wages are not the best so May not be multitasking in the office with jobs to get done. Data base issues - the list goes on.

Yet all things that 24 hour industries seem to have to manage - why would the police be any different?

 

[Jon P]

Yet all things that 24 hour industries seem to have to manage - why would the police be any different?

It all comes down to funding, I not sure what industry you are in , but price rises are being passed onto to consumer be it building materials or food to pay for it. , - firearms license prices have remained the same for a long time- example It costs more to buy a 12 month pet shop licence then a 5 year firearm cert .

 

[gixer1]

It all comes down to funding, I not sure what industry you are in , but price rises are being passed onto to consumer be it building materials or food to pay for it. , - firearms license prices have remained the same for a long time- example It costs more to buy a 12 month pet shop licence then a 5 year firearm cert .

I don’t think a change in the coat has ever been requested by firearms licensing though has it? And do you think if the cost was increased it would change the delays?

 

[Jon P]

I don’t think a change in the coat has ever been requested by firearms licensing though has it? And do you think if the cost was increased it would change the delays?

More funding for staff should result in a quicker turn around , - 4 people can pick more apples then 2 people. As long as the people are up to the job.

 

[dropmdead]

I must say, I think that the service received from our local office is fantastic, and no more funding could improve what is received.
Would I consider if the price went up I would think badly - certainly not.
I cannot comment on other forces and what is offered, but for what our local office offers, I honestly would think it is doing something right, and could be used as a model.

 

[Hod]

Not to derail someone else’s thread - the fact we, as firearms holders accept a 6-12 month wait for a new certificate in some areas staggers me….how much actual hours of work can possibly go into a firearms certificate? From what I can see it would be -

Check through the forms for any errors. (1 hour)

Check background in police system and review social media accounts (2 hours?)

Call referees to discuss applicant (1 hour)

Call land owner to check applicant has land to use requested firearms on (1 hour)

Interview/visit applicant (3 hours)

Chief Constable review and sign (1 hour)

Print certificate (1/2 hour)

Now, I understand there are a pile of these to go through…and the timings can be different, but based on the 150k firearms holders in the U.K., over a 5 year or 60 month period and 46 firearms departments, that works out at 54 to process a month. (And I’m guess it’s not 1 person in each of these firearms departments that do all the work)

Surely this shouldn’t take 6-12 months or anything like it…I think my hours are likely conservative as I can’t see it taking an hour to review a form, although I understand some will take longer than others due to complications, criminal records etc…but Still, seems a little excessive.

I just think it’s a bit of a surprise that some consider it acceptable for the time it can take and are happy to say “well, you didn’t have it in 4 months in advance”…..

Regards,
Gixer

You’re probably not far off, time wise, for a simple renewal.

However, many won’t be simple, for a myriad of reasons, and like has also been mentioned, I’d bet my mortgage that the financially rooked police forces of this country have given FEOs numerous other tasks not directly related to processing certificates.

That’s said, my area of Police Scotland was very efficient. I mean, they had to be, as they only came to see me a week before my certificate expired .

 

[Smellydog]

Do you really think the chief constable checks any?

 

[gixer1]

I must say, I think that the service received from our local office is fantastic, and no more funding could improve what is received.
Would I consider if the price went up I would think badly - certainly not.
I cannot comment on other forces and what is offered, but for what our local office offers, I honestly would think it is doing something right, and could be used as a model.

I have to say, my local firearms licensing are pretty good, but I’m astonished by how many on here in other locations think waiting a year for a certificate is “normal”….

 

[gixer1]

Do you really think the chief constable checks any?

Yes, I actually received a call from one recently - a very pleasant chap who seemed pretty sensible and was just looking for answers to a few questions on my situation that were out of the norm.

 

[gixer1]

I think it would be interesting to see a breakdown of the typical process, warts’n all…and I think it may help the police as many firearms holders may be more sympathetic if there were challenges beyond their control.

What I do hate is the rumours and tales of people going to the back of the queue due to calling to check on things of chasing up - I really hope that is not the case.

I have seen oddities over the years (applications for one person taking longer for no clear reason etc)

I think it is high time the system was electronic and they removed moderators from it all together.

 

[finnbear270]

I have to say, my local firearms licensing are pretty good, but I’m astonished by how many on here in other locations think waiting a year for a certificate is “normal”….

Probably hoping the applicant gets fed up & go's away.