ColinJ
Well-Known Member
You’re in Scotland and I’m in Sussex. Let’s agree to differ.
How much work is involved in a firearms certificate?
- Thread starter gixer1
- Start date
Lucky me, open ticket from first FAC and no idiotic land checks.
longtail22
Active Member
Well, I put mine in, dec 6th 2022 i haven’t even been assigned an officer yet according to the email I got today, only thing fast about the process was the fee, which went out of my account the same day.
Funny that the fee is taken in good time eh? That is nonsense that it’s taken 10 months to get effectively nothing done.
Speak to your shooting org, they may be able to move it along by writing a letter to the firearms licensing team.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
What you have highlighted is about 2 days work, provided it all goes smoothly and no real questions being asked. I would expect a goodly number, especially those being rejected could take quite a bit more time. So let add another 1/2 day across the board.Not to derail someone else’s thread - the fact we, as firearms holders accept a 6-12 month wait for a new certificate in some areas staggers me….how much actual hours of work can possibly go into a firearms certificate? From what I can see it would be -
Check through the forms for any errors. (1 hour)
Check background in police system and review social media accounts (2 hours?)
Call referees to discuss applicant (1 hour)
Call land owner to check applicant has land to use requested firearms on (1 hour)
Interview/visit applicant (3 hours)
Chief Constable review and sign (1 hour)
Print certificate (1/2 hour)
Now, I understand there are a pile of these to go through…and the timings can be different, but based on the 150k firearms holders in the U.K., over a 5 year or 60 month period and 46 firearms departments, that works out at 54 to process a month. (And I’m guess it’s not 1 person in each of these firearms departments that do all the work)
Surely this shouldn’t take 6-12 months or anything like it…I think my hours are likely conservative as I can’t see it taking an hour to review a form, although I understand some will take longer than others due to complications, criminal records etc…but Still, seems a little excessive.
I just think it’s a bit of a surprise that some consider it acceptable for the time it can take and are happy to say “well, you didn’t have it in 4 months in advance”…..
Regards,
Gixer
52 weeks a year. Less six for holiday, bank holidays etc.
Thats 46 x 5 = 230 working days a year.
Lets take off 1/2 a day a week for team meetings etc call it another 20 days.
And another 20 days for training, report writing etc etc.
And take another 30 days (about 3/4 a day a week) answering all the usual questions that FAC holders generally have - “what are your thoughts on me swapping my 6.5 need more to 6.5 peoples republic of china” etc.
So what is left is about 160 days available to process FAC grants / renewals @ 2 1/2 days per renewal = 64 renewals per FEO per year.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Plenty of us in Scotland are shooting over land as densely populated as parts of the rest of the UK. Take pretty much any of cropped areas all down the Eastern parts of Scotland from Caithness down trough Morayshire, Aberdeenshire, Angus, Fire, East Lothian and into the Borders. Then go across to large parts of Ayrshire.
Even parts of the North and West - especially crofting townships or islands such as Islay are pretty densely populated.
There is myth held by many South of the Border that Scotland is a desolate unpopulated wasteland. That is true in places, but certainly not everywhere.
TringSaint
Well-Known Member
In a perfect world, yes. But afaik, there isn’t a central police database so you have to rely on 3rd party checks from people like capita and they can’t take weeks to come back - typical lead time for a crb check is 4-6 weeks.
And then they need to go through every item listed and review it’s relevance to holding an fac.
It’s just crap systems that bog everything down.
TringSaint
Well-Known Member
My perms have only ever been visited when it was first assessed and entered into the land database. Other than that, nowt.
TringSaint
Well-Known Member
Area of England = 130,279 km2. Pop of England is 60,236,400. Pop density = 462/km2
Area of Scotland is 77,910km2. Pop of Scotland = 5,454,000
Pop density = 70/km2
England has a population density 6.6x greater than Scotland, so I would assume (and having driven around Scotland quite a bit I have seen with my own eyes) the areas of high population density are nowhere near as large as in England.
True the Glasgow / Edinburgh belt is densely populated as is the Aberdeen / Inverness bit, but all of the other bits in the middle? Not so sure.
Old Waltonian
Well-Known Member
Can I ask if that e-mail update was volunteered by the Firearms Licensing Department, or in response to yourself questioning the delay?
Old Waltonian
Well-Known Member
Medical checks are also now becoming more convoluted; with some GPs even refusing outright to provide reports to the police on the grounds of being 'conscientous objectors'. My last FAC renewal required that I make a payment of £50 to my local GP Practice in order for them to provide the necessary medical information to Firearms Licensing, otherwise, I was informed that they had no legal duty to comply. Whilst a £50 fee may not be that much of an additional financial burden in the context of a FAC valid for five years, it nevertheless adds to the overall administration and therefore renewal processing time.
Ok, but do you think the majority have complications? I would say - no, they likely don’t.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Majority won’t have complications, but those that do will take up an inordinate and disproportionate amount of time.
People, clients etc are just like farm animals - sheep in particular. You have a flock of 100 sheep. 95 are easy to deal with, easy to take through a gate and put into a field. They drop their lambs on their own and look after their wee ones.
But there are 5 that will always want to get out of a perfectly good field with plenty of grass and will choose to all present breech presentations just when you think all is quiet, and will then actually try and give birth at three in the morning in a snowstorm. Then the lambs will require bottle feeding and inordinate amount of care. Only to die when you think they are perfectly good to grow.
Exactly the same in any industry, profession or walk of life.
The trick in any walk of life is to avoid engaging with that 5% - they occupy 90% of your energy, embuggerance factor etc, yet you make no money on them.
At least in farming you can cull such animals. Less easy to do with clients.
I suspect exactly the same with Police FEOs. I suspect they also spend an inordinate amount of time justifying their every decision to their bosses.
longtail22
Active Member
It was because I contacted them, have heard nothing since I applied on December 6th
longtail22
Active Member
I have contacted who I’m insured with and they just give me a link to my local crime commissioner to write a complain.. my partner is a gp, she has concerns with someone who had suicidal thoughts and owned shotguns so contacted the police as she’s supposed to, they did nothing. So she had to Contact another patient to look after the shotguns. Fortunately the two men shot together and the chap with the issues was happy to sign them over. So it seems they are dragging their heels on every issue.
Old Waltonian
Well-Known Member
I suspected as much. I asked because my brother is in a very similar situation as yourself and he has had to take it upon himself several times, since he applied for his FAC renewal in late January, to try and find out the reason for such a long delay. I think that once the time taken for a FAC renewal has far exceeded what would be considered reasonable, there should at least be an 'update' from Firearms Licensing via an e-mail, which is, after all, hardly a labour-intensive means of communication. Anyway and no joking implied, I sincerely hope yours comes through by Christmas and does not lapse into another year.
The time and cost of an FAC is real easy to fix ! Give us lifetime FAC , all said and done most renewals are a waste of resources. if you commit an offence as soon as you are reported the police will be at your door collecting your firearms. Every ten years prove past use and further need if we must . Then spend the time on more important tasks !
This is very relevant especially with those of us who have undertaken many, many renewals.
There is more sense in having drop on inspections at random , you would need to be a total fool to not have everything in order via an arranged inspection
This is very relevant especially with those of us who have undertaken many, many renewals.
There is more sense in having drop on inspections at random , you would need to be a total fool to not have everything in order via an arranged inspection
nun_hunter
Well-Known Member
I've not read all the replies but a couple of bits that are relevant to this process but are also issues in a lot of other work environments.
Firstly an FEO won't pick up a renewal, and then go through it from start to finish. It'll be picked up in the office where initial checks will be done by one person, then it'll go back into a pile, and then someone else will carry out a different set of checks. Only once it's ready for a visit/final check off by the FEO will it make it to them. Even then it could sit in a pile of jobs they have to do and have booked in.
When you then factor in people going away on A/L for a week but the work doesn't stop so it needs catching up, people working part time, high turnover of staff as everyone is miserable and doesn't want to be there
so only some people are trained to do certain bits.
Then include RFD renewals, RFD checks, HO club paperwork, visitors permits, general variations, any emergency work that needs doing off the back of a police intervention and seizure, court files for revocations, not to mention every day there are 10s of emails just listing what has been bought and sold that day in the whole county (most of these are doubled up as both buyer and seller send in an email) and all need updating and checking on NFLMS (which is a pain to use).
None of this should equal a 12 month wait but neither does it mean a 9 hour process time means a single day.
Think about all the really important emergency work the police aren't doing for a huge number of reasons (mostly time, staffing and cost) and then it's easy to see why the FLD aren't at the front of the queue for resources and staffing even when the risk they pose to a police force is massive. I'm not saying this is right nor acceptable but the whole police system is broken and needs a Royal Commission to completely evaluate and overhaul it. This is not supported by anyone more than those who work there or have worked there. Unfortunately every government has zero appetite for this.
On top of this add in all the new reviews of revoked certificates that have been returned after investigation in the last 5 years to the workload
Firstly an FEO won't pick up a renewal, and then go through it from start to finish. It'll be picked up in the office where initial checks will be done by one person, then it'll go back into a pile, and then someone else will carry out a different set of checks. Only once it's ready for a visit/final check off by the FEO will it make it to them. Even then it could sit in a pile of jobs they have to do and have booked in.
When you then factor in people going away on A/L for a week but the work doesn't stop so it needs catching up, people working part time, high turnover of staff as everyone is miserable and doesn't want to be there
so only some people are trained to do certain bits.Then include RFD renewals, RFD checks, HO club paperwork, visitors permits, general variations, any emergency work that needs doing off the back of a police intervention and seizure, court files for revocations, not to mention every day there are 10s of emails just listing what has been bought and sold that day in the whole county (most of these are doubled up as both buyer and seller send in an email) and all need updating and checking on NFLMS (which is a pain to use).
None of this should equal a 12 month wait but neither does it mean a 9 hour process time means a single day.
Think about all the really important emergency work the police aren't doing for a huge number of reasons (mostly time, staffing and cost) and then it's easy to see why the FLD aren't at the front of the queue for resources and staffing even when the risk they pose to a police force is massive. I'm not saying this is right nor acceptable but the whole police system is broken and needs a Royal Commission to completely evaluate and overhaul it. This is not supported by anyone more than those who work there or have worked there. Unfortunately every government has zero appetite for this.
On top of this add in all the new reviews of revoked certificates that have been returned after investigation in the last 5 years to the workload
Last edited:
longtail22
Active Member
I think also they shouldn’t take the fee until the cert has been issued then they might be quicker.
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