HSE final lead ammunition consultation launched

[LuckyEddie]

You have mentioned several times how you are willing to break the law if lead is banned.

I hope you get caught. People like you will be the end of shooting.

In Scotland there are only two traffic cars available at night for the whole country.
The police have suspended bringing on new recruits and are using their office staff to fill slots over the coming festive period.
They no longer respond to minor calls and even those that they respond to can take hours to be attended to (even then it’s not guaranteed as is witnessed by the sad twin fatality on the A9 where it took them two days to respond and even then because locals chased it up).

So unless you are putting the food into the commercial food chain, then I think it would be very unlikely that someone will be caught.
If you are confident of your shooting all you need is one lead round in your box and the rest to be copper.
Will the police confiscate the beast to have it analysed?
You work it out.

I should add that for shotgun shooting I collect my cases, cut the plastic off and throw those in the fire together with the box.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

What birds exactly consume lead shot over scrub and or wooded areas? as i say after many decades we should be knee deep in shot on the small area the clay club i belong too but none is visible on the ground, and if these birds consume the lead why do they not do so on a rifle range?

The real reason to ban lead shot for clay shooting is so it is not then used for live quarry shooting.

The cost of steel shot and biodegradable wads is such that it risks the future of clay pigeon shooting for the working man, let’s go the other way and ban game shooting which is nothing more than clay shooting with live targets.

It‘s all year round clay shooting that keeps a significant part of the shooting industry viable, not the few months of game shooting, so lose a significant part of the income from clay pigeon shooting and then see what the real cost of banning lead for clay shooting turns out to be. As i say again clay shooting grounds operate over a tiny area in relation to that of game shooting.

Sorry Conor you would make a good politician as you actually ignore any issues that get in the way of your agenda.

@Liveonce I don't appreciate the personal comments, you asked a question and I replied, and if you don't like the answer perhaps don't shoot the messenger, respond to the HSE consultation, because they are the ones formulating the lead ban proposals that could impact on your shooting interests.

If you believe, based on your direct experience over many years, that there is nil/negligible exposure to birds from the use of lead shot on your shoot, and the the other shoots you mention due to the habitats they take place in, perhaps you and those other shoots could submit your/their experience in consultation responses as evidence? Worth encouraging all members of each club to do same. Local and aerial photos of the ground (s) may help, these can be uploaded in responses. Perhaps also surface soil samples measuring density of lead shot might help, ideally done independently by a local college/university. But perhaps all this was already done and submitted to HSE during last year's 6 months consultation.

 

[Night òwl]

You have mentioned several times how you are willing to break the law if lead is banned.

I hope you get caught. People like you will be the end of shooting.

Nowhere in that post has he mentioned breaking the law .
He is stating we are not all sheep and just go with the so say 'facts' aka propaganda put in front of us currently with some rediculous claims.
The lead free debate is a valid one, but only once all the correct evidence has been put forward, proven and implemented, until then none of it is binding or anyone is breaking the law currently in anyway

 

[Smellydog]

Nowhere in that post has he mentioned breaking the law .
He is stating we are not all sheep and just go with the so say 'facts' aka propaganda put in front of us currently with some rediculous claims.
The lead free debate is a valid one, but only once all the correct evidence has been put forward, proven and implemented, until then none of it is binding or anyone is breaking the law currently in anyway

The irony is that this miserable specimen encouraged breaking the law by advocating taking class A drugs and supporting prostitution the other day! Talk about shot himself in the foot...!

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Yep screwed, and the ‘voice of shooting’ clearly see us as an irrelevance.

Why post untrue nonsense like this? BASC has been arguing for the continued use of lead shot for all shotgun target shooting disciplines on ranges and that includes muzzle loading shotguns, and we have been working closely with MLAGB on that both directly and via BSSC. Did you respond to the 2021 call for evidence, 2022 consultation and will you respond to this latest consultation for muzzleloaders? That question is valid for @Smellydog also given the inappropriate comments above.

 

[Smellydog]

Why post untrue nonsense like this? BASC has been arguing for the continued use of lead shot for all shotgun target shooting disciplines on ranges and that includes muzzle loading shotguns, and we have been working closely with MLAGB on that both directly and via BSSC. Did you respond to the 2021 call for evidence, 2022 consultation and will you respond to this latest consultation for muzzleloaders? That question is valid for @Smellydog also given the inappropriate comments above.

Target shooting with a muzzloader wow, what about us that hunt with them? Zippo, yes?
Has your organisation pushed/ advised/ recommended that muzzleloaders should be exempt in the field also? If so then I've not read it and apologize.
So which is it please, your organisation has or has not advised an exemption for muzzloaders?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Target shooting with a muzzloader wow, what about us that hunt with them? Zippo, yes?
Has your organisation pushed/ advised/ recommended that muzzleloaders should be exempt in the field also? If so then I've not read it and apologize.
So which is it please, your organisation has or has not advised an exemption for muzzloaders?

You have not answered the question - what have you done?

 

[Smellydog]

You have not answered the question - what have you done?

Nothing.
Will you answer my question now?

 

[enfieldspares]

I've responded in favour of a lead ban with no derogations.

Lead is either acceptable or not, there are no middle grounds.

I don't agree with the sentiment but the facts as they have been stated, above, by STEPHEN TOAST, are correct. Lead is either acceptable or it isn't.

Lead isn't any less of a poison if I fire it or if an Olympic shot fires it. We are both shooters me at a low skill level the other at high skill level what we are both not is alchemists!

Lead fired from ENFIELDSPARE'S gun is lead. Lead fired from the Olympic shot's gun is also lead....it doesn't turn into being non-toxic as it passes down my barrel and it doesn't turn into being non-toxic as it passes down their barrel.

As I said I don't agree with the sentiment but I can't argue with the fact. Lead is acceptable or not but if it is to be banned for clay pigeon or other artificial target shooting such as "ZZ" aka "helice" then there should be no derogations for so called "international sports shooters".

 

[stubear]

I don't agree with the sentiment but the facts as they have been stated, above, by STEPHEN TOAST, are correct. Lead is either acceptable or it isn't.

Lead isn't any less of a poison if I fire it or if an Olympic shot fires it. We are both shooters me at a low skill level the other at high skill level what we are both not is alchemists!

Lead fired from ENFIELDSPARE'S gun is lead. Lead fired from the Olympic shot's gun is also lead....it doesn't turn into being non-toxic as it passes down my barrel and it doesn't turn into being non-toxic as it passes down their barrel.

As I said I don't agree with the sentiment but I can't argue with the fact. Lead is acceptable or not but if it is to be banned for clay pigeon or other artificial target shooting such as "ZZ" aka "helice" then there should be no derogations for so called "international sports shooters".

Argue it the other way around though - if it’s ok for Olympic shots then it’s ok for the rest of us.

 

[Smellydog]

Still waiting... @Conor O'Gorman

 

[enfieldspares]

Argue it the other way around though - if it’s ok for Olympic shots then it’s ok for the rest of us.

I like that!

 

[RF76]

A few points to consider.

1) For any game produce to enter the food chain in the EU, it must non lead shot

2) Waitrose is one of the biggest UK exporters of game produce to the EU. (We mustn't forget that little video they published which precedes the announcement by the nine organisations).

3) Studies and research which are funded by BASC/GWCT have a predetermined outcome, that is the nature of such things because they set out to find a favourable result.

4) Norway has repealed its own Lead Ban based on credible scientific data.

5) The HSE report suggests an exemption for International Clay competitions in the UK. This suggest that the bi-annual World Clay Championships would gain an exemption for the thousands of competitors who travel from around the world, all shooting up to 1000 hots over the competition. It would be impossible to recover the lead shot from the estate due to the way they layouts are set. The use of Steel shot would never pass a Safety Inspection due to a number of layouts being held within woodland. So, this suggests that Lead is acceptable when the loss of significant revenue is put under threat.

6) BASC when faced with the prospect of losing Driven shooting in Wales campaigned hard and urged us all to support it. But, when it came to the supporting Edward Mountain MSP petition to overturn a proposed removal of Closed Season for Male Deer in Scotland by the SNP/Green led coalition, BASC were pretty much absent.

This is also the same BASC that supports Driven Duck shooting when there is a risk of losing the game season due to a poult shortage. Mallard are on the Amber list as being under threat and have been removed from some northern wildfowling clubs quarry list, as a condition of retaining their leases through Natural England.

7) If BASC were so convinced that Lead was so evil for shooting, surely when they let Wildfowlers be legally restricted to Steel, that was the moment they could've made a stance and said right we'll adopt it right across the board because 'they believe its the right thing to do'....is how I think I read it earlier. Yet oddly, only two decades later are they now pushing for a transitional period. Yet again, if it means protecting the future of Driven then anything and everything must be done as far as they are concerned.

8) In the last year Fiocchi has bought up Lyavale and B&P. This is to both increase market share and production. The production is not for the recreational market but to ensure they are able to meet increased demand and deliver supply to Ukraine. Oh, and that's for Lead shot which is many millions times more going into the ground than any recreational use here in the UK.

9) If, Manufacturers believed in the development of Steel shot for cartridges, they would be developing more BioWad products in the belief that was the future as opposed to the handful they have produced. But, what they have done instead is in the belief that Clay shooting is the future and Driven will eventually fall by the wayside, is invested heavily in larger scale advertising and introduced the return of large scale competitions within Clay Shooting (Game White Gold Cup / Hull ProOne / Lyvavale Masters Express). Alongside this they have also produced lighter load competition cartridges ie to reduce the impact of lead.

Lead is a natural ore, Steel is not and creates pollution through corrosion into the ground.

For field use, full credit to the likes of Yew Tree and Fox, who are developing their own products and producing credible non-lead products which are still acceptably priced vs the overcharging by the big brands.


I could go on, but given my own interactions with BASC in recent times where I have been misinformed and told mistruths my own personal opinion in having watched this Lead agenda unfold is that as an organisation it fails to effectively listen and represent its Members, as an organisation it is no longer fit for purpose and hasn't been for a long time and they are simply no longer credible. Apart from that, I wouldn't trust them as an organisation to successfully open a tin of beans.

When the Steel shot situation was first announced, I also wrote to notable figures within the CPSA with concerns about safety and was ignored. They held the belief it would never affect them and they could continue as normal, I guess now they are having to rethink that approach.

 

[One on top of two]

what the gentleman above said 100 %

 

[Smellydog]

A few points to consider.

1) For any game produce to enter the food chain in the EU, it must non lead shot

2) Waitrose is one of the biggest UK exporters of game produce to the EU. (We mustn't forget that little video they published which precedes the announcement by the nine organisations).

3) Studies and research which are funded by BASC/GWCT have a predetermined outcome, that is the nature of such things because they set out to find a favourable result.

4) Norway has repealed its own Lead Ban based on credible scientific data.

5) The HSE report suggests an exemption for International Clay competitions in the UK. This suggest that the bi-annual World Clay Championships would gain an exemption for the thousands of competitors who travel from around the world, all shooting up to 1000 hots over the competition. It would be impossible to recover the lead shot from the estate due to the way they layouts are set. The use of Steel shot would never pass a Safety Inspection due to a number of layouts being held within woodland. So, this suggests that Lead is acceptable when the loss of significant revenue is put under threat.

6) BASC when faced with the prospect of losing Driven shooting in Wales campaigned hard and urged us all to support it. But, when it came to the supporting Edward Mountain MSP petition to overturn a proposed removal of Closed Season for Male Deer in Scotland by the SNP/Green led coalition, BASC were pretty much absent.

This is also the same BASC that supports Driven Duck shooting when there is a risk of losing the game season due to a poult shortage. Mallard are on the Amber list as being under threat and have been removed from some northern wildfowling clubs quarry list, as a condition of retaining their leases through Natural England.

7) If BASC were so convinced that Lead was so evil for shooting, surely when they let Wildfowlers be legally restricted to Steel, that was the moment they could've made a stance and said right we'll adopt it right across the board because 'they believe its the right thing to do'....is how I think I read it earlier. Yet oddly, only two decades later are they now pushing for a transitional period. Yet again, if it means protecting the future of Driven then anything and everything must be done as far as they are concerned.

8) In the last year Fiocchi has bought up Lyavale and B&P. This is to both increase market share and production. The production is not for the recreational market but to ensure they are able to meet increased demand and deliver supply to Ukraine. Oh, and that's for Lead shot which is many millions times more going into the ground than any recreational use here in the UK.

9) If, Manufacturers believed in the development of Steel shot for cartridges, they would be developing more BioWad products in the belief that was the future as opposed to the handful they have produced. But, what they have done instead is in the belief that Clay shooting is the future and Driven will eventually fall by the wayside, is invested heavily in larger scale advertising and introduced the return of large scale competitions within Clay Shooting (Game White Gold Cup / Hull ProOne / Lyvavale Masters Express). Alongside this they have also produced lighter load competition cartridges ie to reduce the impact of lead.

Lead is a natural ore, Steel is not and creates pollution through corrosion into the ground.

For field use, full credit to the likes of Yew Tree and Fox, who are developing their own products and producing credible non-lead products which are still acceptably priced vs the overcharging by the big brands.


I could go on, but given my own interactions with BASC in recent times where I have been misinformed and told mistruths my own personal opinion in having watched this Lead agenda unfold is that as an organisation it fails to effectively listen and represent its Members, as an organisation it is no longer fit for purpose and hasn't been for a long time and they are simply no longer credible. Apart from that, I wouldn't trust them as an organisation to successfully open a tin of beans.

When the Steel shot situation was first announced, I also wrote to notable figures within the CPSA with concerns about safety and was ignored. They held the belief it would never affect them and they could continue as normal, I guess now they are having to rethink that approach.

The short version for us uneducated members is, thems a bunch of arse licking cronies, prostituting themselves to politicians to protect their own interests and screw anyone else that operates outside their idyll whilst taking their money.

I dumped the joke of the organisation that is basc in the 90's.
I chose to have nothing to do with something that stinks of the secretions of love making with politicians.

The true identification of a successful democracy is how it protects the rights and privileges of minority groups.
The moment those small groups become sacrificial pawns in a democracy it's finished!
It is in effect eating itself, rotting.
Pathetic.
Well they can have it, let's go back to the dark ages. A time of the privileged few. Those with and those without. We'll still be there, on the fringe, in the shadows, quietly going about our business, heads held high, proud in the fact that we never took it up the......

 

[Rewulf]

@Liveonce I don't appreciate the personal comments, you asked a question and I replied, and if you don't like the answer perhaps don't shoot the messenger, respond to the HSE consultation, because they are the ones formulating the lead ban proposals that could impact on your shooting interests

It's funny how in my interactions with you Conor, you were fine handing out personal insults out to me?
But I'm sure you would never call yourself a hypocrite

And don't shoot the messenger?
BASC proposed a lead ban! Without consulting it's membership.
Based on 'evidence' it refuted 5 years previously, so go figure.
Now you want to project BASC as being not only the voice of shooting, but it's saviour?
When will we ALL learn that BASC are neither, and act accordingly?

 

[Liveonce]

@Liveonce I don't appreciate the personal comments, you asked a question and I replied, and if you don't like the answer perhaps don't shoot the messenger, respond to the HSE consultation, because they are the ones formulating the lead ban proposals that could impact on your shooting interests.

If you believe, based on your direct experience over many years, that there is nil/negligible exposure to birds from the use of lead shot on your shoot, and the the other shoots you mention due to the habitats they take place in, perhaps you and those other shoots could submit your/their experience in consultation responses as evidence? Worth encouraging all members of each club to do same. Local and aerial photos of the ground (s) may help, these can be uploaded in responses. Perhaps also surface soil samples measuring density of lead shot might help, ideally done independently by a local college/university. But perhaps all this was already done and submitted to HSE during last year's 6 months consultation.

Have you ever heard of not for profit clubs, Ie we as a Club just about survive financially relying on the free goodwill of the members to keep the Club operating and affordable for the average income working person. Not those who can afford £40,£50 £60 to shoot one living target.

We do not have a two million pound fighting fund, so unless the local college/university works for free then it won’t happen or do you BASC want to pay for it?

As for the density of lead I expect given the ground has been shot over every sunday morning for decades by say 30 guns shooting 60 clays I would expect that density to be high, however you see no lead shot when walking the ground and no evidence of impact on the environment, birds are not dropping out of the sky. We see buzzards, woodpeckers, pigeons, field mice, squirrels, foxes etc, etc.

 

[Smellydog]

As for the density of lead I expect given the ground has been shot over every sunday morning for decades by say 30 guns shooting 60 clays I would expect that density to be high, however you see no lead shot when walking the ground and no evidence of impact on the environment, birds are not dropping out of the sky. We see buzzards, woodpeckers, pigeons, field mice, squirrels, foxes etc, etc.

That's that hypothetical thing they use to poison the mind of the vulnerable. It's more toxic than anything else!

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Have you ever heard of not for profit clubs, Ie we as a Club just about survive financially relying on the free goodwill of the members to keep the Club operating and affordable for the average income working person. Not those who can afford £40,£50 £60 to shoot one living target.

We do not have a two million pound fighting fund, so unless the local college/university works for free then it won’t happen or do you BASC want to pay for it?

As for the density of lead I expect given the ground has been shot over every sunday morning for decades by say 30 guns shooting 60 clays I would expect that density to be high, however you see no lead shot when walking the ground and no evidence of impact on the environment, birds are not dropping out of the sky. We see buzzards, woodpeckers, pigeons, field mice, squirrels, foxes etc, etc.

As I wrote earlier, if you believe, based on your direct experience over many years, that there is nil/negligible exposure to birds from the use of lead shot on your shoot, and the other shoots you mention due to the habitats they take place in, perhaps you and those other shoots could submit your/their experience in consultation responses as evidence. How much or little effort you put into that is your choice. Doing nothing but having a moan on here, or having a go at me or BASC, is not going to change anything as regards the outcome of the HSE consultation.

As a general comment in response to the other posts above - less than 3000 people, including some organisations and clubs responded to the last HSE consultation with information and views. As a result the previous proposal to restrict the outdoor use of lead airgun pellets has been dropped and there are now no restrictions proposed for lead airgun pellets within the current consultation. So, whatever your shooting interest, perhaps stop wasting your spare time moaning on here and use that time to respond to the consultation as best you can. So far, 5 pages of discussion, and I think only 2 SD members have posted that they responded.

New HSE consultation launched on lead ammunition

A consultation on outdoor lead ammunition use in England, Scotland and Wales revises previous restriction proposals for lead airgun pellets.

basc.org.uk

 

[Rewulf]

So far, 5 pages of discussion, and I think only 2 SD members have posted that they responded

Believe it or not Conor, we don't always report back to you on here, or basc for that matter, every time we either respond to the consultation, or lobby other parties, about the lead ban.
It's interesting to note how you've swung this round to it's our fault if lead gets banned in clay grounds, when your self imposed live quarry ban, was so obviously going to impact clay target shooting and beyond.
What did you think was going to happen, a no6 lead shot size and below ban?