Derbyshire farmer shoots burglars

[jimmy milnes]

The flip side of the coin

Canterbury: Man charged with murder after farm death

A 51-year-old man was pronounced dead at a farm in Chartham, near Canterbury, on Sunday.

www.bbc.co.uk

Local lads with local names ?

 

[75]

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Back to the Derbyshire fella

 

[25 Sharps]

But equally in most US Jurisdictions if you shoot somebody you had better be able to show very good reason etc as you will be subject to a full investigation and full weight of the law.

In the UK we don’t permit firearms to be for self defence and carried or to be available as such (except in a few special circumstances and then usually in the service of the crown). When not in use our laws require firearms to be kept securely locked away.

I suspect the law would look very differently if you took out a shotgun to go and investigate a noise in the barns, to a gang brandishing AK 47s, already discharging rounds into the farm house and was now trying to break in.

What about NI?

 

[Heym SR20]

When ever there is an unexpected death there needs to be an investigation. When there are multiple parties involved, those parties may be arrested for questioning so that the police are able to get to the bottom of things.

We on this forum where not at the scene of this incident and thus do not know what happened. If anybody was at the scene, they should be giving their account to the police.

If there is sufficient evidence that shows criminal wrongdoing, and sufficient evidence that the CPS believes there is a likelihood of a conviction where a jury would find beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant was guilty, then charges will be raised.

As for the individual who died, he was somebody’s son, brother, father, friend etc. he may have taken the wrong turn in life but there will probably be people who grieve over his loss. And they may share this on social media.

 

[Twodogs]

When ever there is an unexpected death there needs to be an investigation. When there are multiple parties involved, those parties may be arrested for questioning so that the police are able to get to the bottom of things.

We on this forum where not at the scene of this incident and thus do not know what happened. If anybody was at the scene, they should be giving their account to the police.

If there is sufficient evidence that shows criminal wrongdoing, and sufficient evidence that the CPS believes there is a likelihood of a conviction where a jury would find beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant was guilty, then charges will be raised.

As for the individual who died, he was somebody’s son, brother, father, friend etc. he may have taken the wrong turn in life but there will probably be people who grieve over his loss. And they may share this on social media.

Pedant alert.

Realistic prospect of a conviction being the correct bench mark. Not forgetting the ‘in the public interest test’. (Full Code test or a Threshold Test).

The Code clarifies that a realistic prospect of conviction means “an objective, impartial and reasonable jury, bench of magistrates or a judge hearing a case alone, properly directed and acting in accordance with the law, is more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge alleged.” Prosecutors and police decision makers must therefore be in a position to explain why it “is more likely than not” that the court will convict.

Cases that do not pass the evidential stage must not proceed, no matter how serious or sensitive. But even where the evidential stage is met, a prosecution does not automatically take place as the public interest stage must also be considered.

The public interest stage​

A prosecution will usually take place unless the prosecutor, or where appropriate the police decision maker, is satisfied that there are public interest factors tending against prosecution which outweigh those in favour. This includes considering whether the public interest can be properly served by offering the offender the opportunity to have the matter dealt with by way of an out of court disposal rather than a prosecution and so on.

Charging (The Director's Guidance) - sixth edition, December 2020, incorporating the National File Standard | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

 

[Greenknight88]

Once had a friend who had a scuffle with an intruder and a officer said the best advice he could give if it ever happened again was to drag them to the bottom of the stairs.. that way your only way to safety is through them..

 

[Smellydog]

Once had a friend who had a scuffle with an intruder and a officer said the best advice he could give if it ever happened again was to drag them to the bottom of the stairs.. that way your only way to safety is through them..

That's interesting.
The police are now advising on how to fabricate a scene and also it implies one can only defend ones self when fleeing ones property because someone else has decided they want it!
What a fooked up stupid little world we live on....

 

[maxtheflyinghorse]

Glad I moved to the states 9 months ago. And I live in Pennsylvania where castle doctrine applies. Also this is a “stand the ground state”.me and my wife we both carry. Then again every has guns here so having a gun for self defence is a must here in my opinion. Having a friendly chat with two cops here about the job here me being an ex cop from the UK. First thing they said was they will never be a cop in the UK as UK police don’t carry guns. They advised me to get a carry permit here which was the first thing I did arriving here.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Glad I moved to the states 9 months ago. And I live in Pennsylvania where castle doctrine applies. Also this is a “stand the ground state”.me and my wife we both carry. Then again every has guns here so having a gun for self defence is a must here in my opinion. Having a friendly chat with two cops here about the job here me being an ex cop from the UK. First thing they said was they will never be a cop in the UK as UK police don’t carry guns. They advised me to get a carry permit here which was the first thing I did arriving here.

Did you not have to wait the required 90 days to be seen as a resident first? Or perhaps you had married a US citizen and were seen as a US citizen? I did my 8 years of working in NM, Missouri and Mi, only Mi was the hard one for firearms ownership ref pistols.

 

[Robinson]

In Norway, you can defend your self physically if you fear that your life, or if someone else's life is in danger. We dont have many genuine self defense cases with deadly outcome where only civilians are involved, that hits the media and the courts. There is no mentioning in our laws about what can be used to defend one self, but we have the same laws as Britain regarding how to store our firearms. They must be locked away in a gun safe.

The last 20 years I can think of three incidents were guns have been used in self defense with a deadly outcome. Two of them was in my part of the country. On was a family father who was wakened up in the early hours by a nasty banging on the outer door of his house. He peeked out of his upstairs bedroom window and saw a guy, the well known neighborhood bully and troublemaker, banging on the door demanding to be let in. He of course wouldn't. The guy by the door appeared drunk and aggressive and was known as a violent man. They argued, and after a while the guy by the door found a large stone that he trowed at the door several times to break it open. The family man upstairs was not about to let this men enter his house were his children and wife was, now terrified by the ruckus. He found his shotgun, put the barrel out of his window and ended it all. After the initial investigation by the police, no charges was raised. A clear and legal self defense.

The other case wasn't far from here either. The man who came out alive of the situation got a phone call from a man he knew, who accused him of having an affair with his wife. And he was told under no uncertain terms that he was coming for him. And that he was going to get hurt. This jealous man was well known as a man not afraid to use violence. The man who came out alive called the police and asked for help. "Lock your doors, we are on our way" , was their reply. He locked his doors, but the jealous man came before the police arrived. When he wasn't let in, he broke down the door and forced his way in. The man in the house locked him self in the bathroom, but he brought his shotgun with him. When that door was kicked in, the intruder didn't survive that. Here too, after the obligatory investigation, no charges was raised. Non of this two had any court time. In none of this cases any lethal weapon was found on the dead guys. But is was concluded that they had good reasons to fear for their health or life, and that made the use of deadly force legal here in Norway. I believe that in Britain too, this would have been the regarded as legal self defense.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

In Norway, you can defend your self physically if you fear that your life, or if someone else's life is in danger. We dont have many genuine self defense cases with deadly outcome, were only civilians are involved that hits the media and the courts. There is no mentioning in our laws about what can be used to defend one self, but we have the same laws as Britain regarding how to store our firearms. They must be locked away in a gun safe.

The last 20 years I can think of three incidents were guns have been used in self defense with a deadly outcome. Two of them was in my part of the country. On was a family father who was wakened up in the early hours by a nasty banging on the outer door of his house. He peeked out of his upstairs bedroom window and saw a guy, the well known neighborhood bully and troublemaker, banging on the door demanding to be let in. He of course wouldn't. The guy by the door appeared drunk and aggressive and was known as a violent man. They argued, and after a while the guy by the door found a large stone that he trowed at the door several times to break it open. The family man upstairs was not about to let this men enter his house were his children and wife was, now terrified by the ruckus. He found his shotgun, put the barrel out of his window and ended it all. After the initial investigation by the police, no charges was raised. A clear and legal self defense.

The other case wasn't far from here either. The man who came out alive of the situation got a phone call from a man he knew, who accused him of having an affair with his wife. And he was told under no uncertain terms that he was coming for him. And that he was going to get hurt. This jealous man was well known as a man not afraid to use violence. The man who came out alive called the police and asked for help. "Lock your doors, we are on our way" , was their reply. He locked his doors, but the jealous man came before the police arrived. When he wasn't let in, he broke down the door and forced his way in. The man in the house locked him self in the bathroom, but he brought his shotgun with him. When that door was kicked in, the intruder didn't survive that. Here too, after the obligatory investigation, no charges was raised. Non of this two had any court time. In none of this cases any lethal weapon was found on the dead guys. But is was concluded that they had good reasons to fear for their health or life, and that made the use of deadly force legal here in Norway. I believe that in Britain too, this would have been the regarded as legal self defense.

Our Law is pretty much the same in that you have to justify a belief of (not necessarily literal)threat to your own or someone else’s life. The same applies in many other countries.
The difference is how this is applied in practice. Two of my hobbies rely on my good standing, both might be jeopardised by intervening/involved in an incident. Even though there is an obvious threat of violence to myself or another person/s.
The Law seems to have gone from one extreme to another. The “victim” can no longer expect to be treated as innocent and acting lawfully. It seems that the arrest first sort it out after becomes the norm. In certain cases this is the correct action. However like many things nowadays common sense is sadly lacking from many decisions (not specifically about this subject).

 

[Robinson]

If one happens to find one self in a situation where deadly force have beed used, its important to know how police think.
If its you lying there dead, he will automatically focus his mind towards: who did this? If it's the burglar lying there dead and you are still alive, he will focus on you. He will want to charge someone. That's his job. So the important thing to remember is to say: "I feared for my life. Or my children's life." And nothing else without the advice of a lawyer. To believe that this very understanding and sympathetic policeman/woman is your friend, and are looking out for yours best interests, can get you in serious trouble.
Sadly, this is how it is...

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Back in 1978 I had a gone sour relationship with a woman, we had a joint mortgage that I paid the whole amount on. I was away in Germany working so I paid for a taxi to get her to her job in the next town, I was introduced by her to the taxi driver at a dance in Hinkley and we got chatting, he had done his national service in Malaya and stayed on to marry a local Chinese/Malayan then he got big into martial arts and competed even as far away in Hong Kong. Later they returned to the UK to Coventry which must have been in the early 60s as a group of teddy boys went for him and him having the wife & kids in tow to which he zapped one of the teds = dead ted.
The cops were fine decided no case to answer. Fast forward to 1978 and he had a bouncers business running and he had punched a guy in his stomach in the Lafayette ballroom Wolverhampton who subsequently died, the PPS decided he could not have know that the victim was an alky with a dicky liver so they let him off.
Now it is New Years Eve at the end of 1978 and I had been trying for months to get her by calling her from Germany to list the house for sale as I had stopped paying the mortgage but to no avail. Then I get a call from her to my mums house in Coventry where I was for Xmas to come over to the Hinkley house to talk it over, which I did go to.
Then out of the kitchen lurches Godzilla (it turned out she had been having an affair with him) he then tells me in no uncertain terms I had better keep paying the mortgage or he will kill me "and you know I can as I know where you work" he then named the boss of the outfit in Wolfsburg where I was working.
I had no witnesses except for her (waste of time there) so I went back to Wolfsburg ASAP packed my kit got a job by phone in Paris and later got a new mortgage on a house in Deal Kent to be as far away as possible from the situation. You cannot take that info to the police and expect any help until you are the victim.
It changed my perspective on self defence forever.

 

[Heym SR20]

In Norway, you can defend your self physically if you fear that your life, or if someone else's life is in danger. We dont have many genuine self defense cases with deadly outcome where only civilians are involved, that hits the media and the courts. There is no mentioning in our laws about what can be used to defend one self, but we have the same laws as Britain regarding how to store our firearms. They must be locked away in a gun safe.

The last 20 years I can think of three incidents were guns have been used in self defense with a deadly outcome. Two of them was in my part of the country. On was a family father who was wakened up in the early hours by a nasty banging on the outer door of his house. He peeked out of his upstairs bedroom window and saw a guy, the well known neighborhood bully and troublemaker, banging on the door demanding to be let in. He of course wouldn't. The guy by the door appeared drunk and aggressive and was known as a violent man. They argued, and after a while the guy by the door found a large stone that he trowed at the door several times to break it open. The family man upstairs was not about to let this men enter his house were his children and wife was, now terrified by the ruckus. He found his shotgun, put the barrel out of his window and ended it all. After the initial investigation by the police, no charges was raised. A clear and legal self defense.

The other case wasn't far from here either. The man who came out alive of the situation got a phone call from a man he knew, who accused him of having an affair with his wife. And he was told under no uncertain terms that he was coming for him. And that he was going to get hurt. This jealous man was well known as a man not afraid to use violence. The man who came out alive called the police and asked for help. "Lock your doors, we are on our way" , was their reply. He locked his doors, but the jealous man came before the police arrived. When he wasn't let in, he broke down the door and forced his way in. The man in the house locked him self in the bathroom, but he brought his shotgun with him. When that door was kicked in, the intruder didn't survive that. Here too, after the obligatory investigation, no charges was raised. Non of this two had any court time. In none of this cases any lethal weapon was found on the dead guys. But is was concluded that they had good reasons to fear for their health or life, and that made the use of deadly force legal here in Norway. I believe that in Britain too, this would have been the regarded as legal self defense.

I would suggest in the two cases you cite

The first case, my reading is that the gentleman concerned was trying to break down the door and was threatening to come inside the house. But whilst it was clearly very threatening behaviour he hadn’t yet broken into the house before he was shot. Was the house owner in imminent danger? The investigation in Norway ruled “yes”, would this occur in the UK?

In the second case the individual had threatened to kill the house owner, the police had been informed and were on their way, he had then broken into the house and broken through through the bathroom door and the shooting was a last line of defence. Somebody who has broken through multiple doors is clearly not after a little fireside chat. Again the Norwegian authorities ruled self defence.

 

[Heym SR20]

Back in 1978 I had a gone sour relationship with a woman, we had a joint mortgage that I paid the whole amount on. I was away in Germany working so I paid for a taxi to get her to her job in the next town, I was introduced by her to the taxi driver at a dance in Hinkley and we got chatting, he had done his national service in Malaya and stayed on to marry a local Chinese/Malayan then he got big into martial arts and competed even as far away in Hong Kong. Later they returned to the UK to Coventry which must have been in the early 60s as a group of teddy boys went for him and him having the wife & kids in tow to which he zapped one of the teds = dead ted.
The cops were fine decided no case to answer. Fast forward to 1978 and he had a bouncers business running and he had punched a guy in his stomach in the Lafayette ballroom Wolverhampton who subsequently died, the PPS decided he could not have know that the victim was an alky with a dicky liver so they let him off.
Now it is New Years Eve at the end of 1978 and I had been trying for months to get her by calling her from Germany to list the house for sale as I had stopped paying the mortgage but to no avail. Then I get a call from her to my mums house in Coventry where I was for Xmas to come over to the Hinkley house to talk it over, which I did go to.
Then out of the kitchen lurches Godzilla (it turned out she had been having an affair with him) he then tells me in no uncertain terms I had better keep paying the mortgage or he will kill me "and you know I can as I know where you work" he then named the boss of the outfit in Wolfsburg where I was working.
I had no witnesses except for her (waste of time there) so I went back to Wolfsburg ASAP packed my kit got a job by phone in Paris and later got a new mortgage on a house in Deal Kent to be as far away as possible from the situation. You cannot take that info to the police and expect any help until you are the victim.
It changed my perspective on self defence forever.

I would suggest that in today’s society the Police might take a very different view on the Godzilla’s actions.

 

[kenbro]

But equally in most US Jurisdictions if you shoot somebody you had better be able to show very good reason etc as you will be subject to a full investigation and full weight of the law.

In the UK we don’t permit firearms to be for self defence and carried or to be available as such (except in a few special circumstances and then usually in the service of the crown). When not in use our laws require firearms to be kept securely locked away.

I suspect the law would look very differently if you took out a shotgun to go and investigate a noise in the barns, to a gang brandishing AK 47s, already discharging rounds into the farm house and was now trying to break in.

Ken.

 

[BenBhoy]

Its the nanny woke state that has allowed the principle's to fail in todays lowlife ! who feel its a free for all out there for killing, stealing, mugging all because they feel entitled to do it! COZ we is allowed init?

Oh of course, because in time gone by (I'm not sure when you decided the 'state' is to blame for individual choices?) there was never any robbery or murder was there? Victorian London was renowned for it's friendly, honest nature......

 

[Robinson]

I would suggest in the two cases you cite

The first case, my reading is that the gentleman concerned was whilst it was clearly very threatening behaviour he hadn’t yet broken into the house before he was shot. Was the house owner in imminent danger? The investigation in Norway ruled “yes”, would this occur in the UK?

I dont know what the ruling would be in the UK, but waiting until the threatening person had broken down the only real barrier between the threat and his family , the outer door, would clearly heighten the danger for his family. If he was inclined to hurt anyone, the situation would have been much more chaotic with this madman on the loose innside with his family. Both the home owner and the police took the right decisions...

 

[tackb]

Oh of course, because in time gone by (I'm not sure when you decided the 'state' is to blame for individual choices?) there was never any robbery or murder was there? Victorian London was renowned for it's friendly, honest nature......

in victorian britain you were allowed to arm yourself to defend yourself against criminality

in todays world we are banned from carrying anything for self defence because we have surrendered our safety to the police who it has been shown cannot be everywhere all the time obviously

given the choice i would rather be able to defend myself against villianous assault then defend myself in a court of law than just die waiting for the police , unfortunatlely that is not an option.

i'm lucky in that i am a big bugger at 6'4'' and 20 stone but i am still vunerable to attack from a group or individual with weapons , those smaller and weaker than me are even more vunerable.

 

[paul o']

in victorian britain you were allowed to arm yourself to defend yourself against criminality

in todays world we are banned from carrying anything for self defence because we have surrendered our safety to the police who it has been shown cannot be everywhere all the time obviously

given the choice i would rather be able to defend myself against villianous assault then defend myself in a court of law than just die waiting for the police , unfortunatlely that is not an option.

i'm lucky in that i am a big bugger at 6'4'' and 20 stone but i am still vunerable to attack from a group or individual with weapons , those smaller and weaker than me are even more vunerable.

My point exactly we are now guilty until we prove ourselves innocent !
If nanny had left us alone we still would be able to defend ourselves and not rely on a so called police service that has it's hands tide behind it's back due to the woke nanny courts ! The System is broken and it's to late to fix it ? .
When I was a kid a copper would deal out a good straighten up or a clip around the sweed! Now they have to offer then Tea and talk like nanny's.
As kids we carried sheath knifes on our belts or pocket knifes ! In full view we would play splits or be found making fishing spears to go fishing ,light cooking fires camp out dig dens in the woods but none of us thought it would be good to go steal or take anyone's belongings. Steal for an old dear you wouldn't get out of the town alive as for getting out a phone and taking pictures of it ???? . WTF is that all about.

Thing is today there are still some that stand there ground ! But there's lots who only wish they could ? There norm the one holding there phones or defending the scum on the wonder web.