Approved witness payment

[Heym SR20]

The original concept of the Woodland and then subsequently the National Stalkers' Competency Certificates, which became DSC 1 was evolved in the same period as the Hungerford [Michael Ryan] killing spree. It was intended to be analogous to the Yatch Master's Certificate i.e. a certificate of competence making it easier or cheaper to gain insurance. The educationalists required it to become more robust statistically (numbers of multiple choice questions) and more bureaucratic as it was enlarged. In the same timeframe BASC were desperate to become more involved in stalking and so also became involved. DMQ emerged as the vehicle for that. It had input from the Colleges, the Red Deer Commission (before it became the Deer Commission Scotland) and other bodies. Yes it was, and is, bureaucratic and like so many things became as much about process as pragmatism.
Do I regret being involved at that stage? No, because I believed then and continue to believe that improvements in knowledge and practice are bound up with deer welfare. The ethos was that there is not one right way but that there are even more wrong ways and that presenting clean carcasses and encouraging venison consumption was likely to improve the price of our product. Two events conspired to keep the venison price low: the disintegration of the USSR meaning that Eastern Europe could obtain hard currency by selling their (larger per unit animal) carcasses into the market and then deer farming in New Zealand. The price has remained depressed. I mention this because I do believe deer welfare to be improved when the product is more valuable.
Was it designed as a money making operation? Emphatically NO originally, but like so many things it became less efficient at processing the information over time and computer systems and database software became better and more expensive. I was never on the Board of DMQ and @sikamalc is right to say "Too many chiefs...."

Have you seen the costs these days of doing a yacht master ticket - it costs pretty good money to be assessed.

 

[JockStalk]

I benefitted from the experience and generosity of AWs to get my ticket. That’s how most folk have got on.
Why on earth kick in the teeth those that already give so much FOC by making them pay to be AWs. I’d have thought the logical step would be for DMQ to pay the AW, regardless of assessment outcome - not the other way round.

 

[sikamalc]

The original concept of the Woodland and then subsequently the National Stalkers' Competency Certificates, which became DSC 1 was evolved in the same period as the Hungerford [Michael Ryan] killing spree. It was intended to be analogous to the Yatch Master's Certificate i.e. a certificate of competence making it easier or cheaper to gain insurance. The educationalists required it to become more robust statistically (numbers of multiple choice questions) and more bureaucratic as it was enlarged. In the same timeframe BASC were desperate to become more involved in stalking and so also became involved. DMQ emerged as the vehicle for that. It had input from the Colleges, the Red Deer Commission (before it became the Deer Commission Scotland) and other bodies. Yes it was, and is, bureaucratic and like so many things became as much about process as pragmatism.
Do I regret being involved at that stage? No, because I believed then and continue to believe that improvements in knowledge and practice are bound up with deer welfare. The ethos was that there is not one right way but that there are even more wrong ways and that presenting clean carcasses and encouraging venison consumption was likely to improve the price of our product. Two events conspired to keep the venison price low: the disintegration of the USSR meaning that Eastern Europe could obtain hard currency by selling their (larger per unit animal) carcasses into the market and then deer farming in New Zealand. The price has remained depressed. I mention this because I do believe deer welfare to be improved when the product is more valuable.
Was it designed as a money making operation? Emphatically NO originally, but like so many things it became less efficient at processing the information over time and computer systems and database software became better and more expensive. I was never on the Board of DMQ and @sikamalc is right to say "Too many chiefs...."

In my previous life, and whilst still running a stalking business, I was responsible for a charity, with some 25 staff and 4 million invested. I left there some 17 years back and carried on with my stalking business and purchased this site, along with my two colleagues.

DMQ as with any business, charity, call it what you like, is not going to survive unless you have a management structure that is willing to improve the business over the coming years. Forward thinking is vital for improvement, whilst working with those you have employed or rely on for the success of what you are trying to achieve is also important.
Its unfortunate that it appears DMQ think that AW's should, not only give up their time, transport, ground, knowledge, experience, maybe time off their full time job, Family time, to help maintain what DMQ needs, to keep the whole practice of Level 2 alive. And then expect them to not only give this up for free, but then also pay DMQ to stay on, whilst also giving up a further day of travel and possible overnight stay. So the £65 turns into far more expense.

Its the thin edge of the wedge. To me the management of DMQ have no clue how to manage this, and now, never will in my opinion. You need trust and respect to run such an organisation. This to me is now lost. And I have better things to do with my life than support an organisation that in my opinion has declined to such an extent that I have no wish to be part of it.

 

[griff]

In all honesty it actually saddens me to see such a genuinely worthwhile award reduced to nothing more than a box ticking exercise. When I did my DSC2 many many years ago through the barony college my AW was @griff . Who was an absolute gentleman and fountain of knowledge. On completion I felt as if I had really earned something. This interaction with him gave me the drive and confidence to pursue a long spell with FCS as a contractor during that time became an AW ,to in some way repay or pay forward the kindness and sharing of knowledge that was shown to me.
There are probably as we debate here other training providers rubbing their hands at the possibility of the door being left slightly open to get a foot in. Good for them I say. We live in interesting times.

HF

Thankyou for those kind words, means a lot especially in the world we live in today.

 

[timbrayford]

Overall it looks like a spectacular own goal by DMQ now that they have credible competition from the Lantra backed PDS 1&2

 

[Mungo]

In my previous life, and whilst still running a stalking business, I was responsible for a charity, with some 25 staff and 4 million invested. I left there some 17 years back and carried on with my stalking business and purchased this site, along with my two colleagues.

DMQ as with any business, charity, call it what you like, is not going to survive unless you have a management structure that is willing to improve the business over the coming years. Forward thinking is vital for improvement, whilst working with those you have employed or rely on for the success of what you are trying to achieve is also important.
Its unfortunate that it appears DMQ think that AW's should, not only give up their time, transport, ground, knowledge, experience, maybe time off their full time job, Family time, to help maintain what DMQ needs, to keep the whole practice of Level 2 alive. And then expect them to not only give this up for free, but then also pay DMQ to stay on, whilst also giving up a further day of travel and possible overnight stay. So the £65 turns into far more expense.

Its the thin edge of the wedge. To me the management of DMQ have no clue how to manage this, and now, never will in my opinion. You need trust and respect to run such an organisation. This to me is now lost. And I have better things to do with my life than support an organisation that in my opinion has declined to such an extent that I have no wish to be part of it.

Exactly this.

It is a pyramid scheme, pure and simple.

If they want to charge a subscription (which is essentially what this is), then they need to provide the resources and support to go with it. The absence of any of this reveals that they have no intention of actually being a professional body (like BSAVA or CIEEM).

 

[DamDama]

It does seem absurd.

Does anyone know how the other vocational pyramid schemes like PADI work? Presumably there is some sort of precedent here that they’re working from?

The PADI system is far more sophisticated than anything DMG could come up with

 

[DamDama]

The PADI system is far more sophisticated than anything DMG could come up with

That should be DMQ

 

[Bo Diddley]

That should help to kill off shooting a bit quicker....

 

[pob]

Another example of a world where the decision makers know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

What a kick in the teeth to all those AWs who gave their time so generously to 'pass it on'. I just cannot fathom why anyone would want to bring that to an end.

How is any new blood going to enter the game now? I fear that Deer management in the UK will now fall to an ever diminishing group of old hands.

I asked AI to make me a picture of future UK deer managers.
(Note firearms have been banned. Both in my vision of the future, and by the AI app)


Not sure this AI lark is up to much. The first two I tried did something odd with the dog. Can you spot the problem?

 

[David Barker]

L2 required in virtually all commercial forestry leases.

Commercial leases i presume your talking FLS. as i have lots of ground from other well known forestry companies and never been asked for Lev 2.

 

[David Barker]

In my previous life, and whilst still running a stalking business, I was responsible for a charity, with some 25 staff and 4 million invested. I left there some 17 years back and carried on with my stalking business and purchased this site, along with my two colleagues.

DMQ as with any business, charity, call it what you like, is not going to survive unless you have a management structure that is willing to improve the business over the coming years. Forward thinking is vital for improvement, whilst working with those you have employed or rely on for the success of what you are trying to achieve is also important.
Its unfortunate that it appears DMQ think that AW's should, not only give up their time, transport, ground, knowledge, experience, maybe time off their full time job, Family time, to help maintain what DMQ needs, to keep the whole practice of Level 2 alive. And then expect them to not only give this up for free, but then also pay DMQ to stay on, whilst also giving up a further day of travel and possible overnight stay. So the £65 turns into far more expense.

Its the thin edge of the wedge. To me the management of DMQ have no clue how to manage this, and now, never will in my opinion. You need trust and respect to run such an organisation. This to me is now lost. And I have better things to do with my life than support an organisation that in my opinion has declined to such an extent that I have no wish to be part of it.

Maybe this is the last quick money grab by DMQ and then they will go back to BASC or BDS for there day jobs.

 

[Ratel]

Perhaps it was a strategic move to get rid of a lot of the old dinosaurs who've rather dominated the AW scene with their outdated methods and practices, and make way for some new blood to come into the system?

Thank you for those kind words Tim. As a dinosaur I suppose I may have dominated the scene by taking out numerous keepers, newcomers and lecturing at colleges regarding level 2. Methinks thou dost protest a little too loud but then perhaps you have a small dog hiding in the wings of this fight.

 

[bottletopbill]

OK folks all these courses are money making .
Why not set up a system with a good stalker then have to have them witness over a number of stalks from start to finish and sign you off.
Lots of folks on this site could set this up.

Only a novice looking in

 

[Mungo]

OK folks all these courses are money making .
Why not set up a system with a good stalker then have to have them witness over a number of stalks from start to finish and sign you off.
Lots of folks on this site could set this up.

Only a novice looking in

That’s how it started…

 

[VSS]

Thank you for those kind words Tim. As a dinosaur I suppose I may have dominated the scene by taking out numerous keepers, newcomers and lecturing at colleges regarding level 2. Methinks thou dost protest a little too loud but then perhaps you have a small dog hiding in the wings of this fight.

You will notice that, in the absence of a "tongue in cheek" emoji, I used the "stirring pot".
In other words, don't take it too seriously!

Having said that, I am definitely seeing a resentment to change among some of the posts here, a feeling that the old ways are the only ways. But they're not.
We can't protect the future of stalking by wrapping it up in a museum bubble.
Young stalkers need to learn from the old school chaps like you, and then take that knowledge and move forward, not hang back. Sure, they'll end up way ahead of you, but you gave them the opportunity to do that. It's something to be proud of, not resentful of.

(And by the way, that "young dog" you refer to has been an AW for some time. So she's not "waiting in the wings" as you put it. She's already on the stage. And with over 1,000 deer to her credit, fair play to her. And much of that is thanks to the established stalkers of this site who gave her the guidance when she needed it).

 

[bottletopbill]

Why can't the old and new work together.
We have old guy's who knew our to stalk with out the equipment we have today .
As a novice this would be a great help to any newbies as we are called..

 

[Stevie/P]

Perhaps a u turn on AWs paying a fee is in order judging by the response this thread is getting
Seems everyone in authority is doing u turns these days.

 

[jall55]

In my previous life, and whilst still running a stalking business, I was responsible for a charity, with some 25 staff and 4 million invested. I left there some 17 years back and carried on with my stalking business and purchased this site, along with my two colleagues.

DMQ as with any business, charity, call it what you like, is not going to survive unless you have a management structure that is willing to improve the business over the coming years. Forward thinking is vital for improvement, whilst working with those you have employed or rely on for the success of what you are trying to achieve is also important.
Its unfortunate that it appears DMQ think that AW's should, not only give up their time, transport, ground, knowledge, experience, maybe time off their full time job, Family time, to help maintain what DMQ needs, to keep the whole practice of Level 2 alive. And then expect them to not only give this up for free, but then also pay DMQ to stay on, whilst also giving up a further day of travel and possible overnight stay. So the £65 turns into far more expense.

Its the thin edge of the wedge. To me the management of DMQ have no clue how to manage this, and now, never will in my opinion. You need trust and respect to run such an organisation. This to me is now lost. And I have better things to do with my life than support an organisation that in my opinion has declined to such an extent that I have no wish to be part of it.

Just to clarify - would you still not get paid by the client as normal ?
You have to pay an annual fee of £65 to be approved as a witness ?

If that is the case as i said earlier why not just add 5/10 quid as a surcharge ?

Am i missing the point Malc - is it you really dont want to get involved with the organisation ?

 

[Leec6.5]

Why can't the old and new work together.
We have old guy's who knew our to stalk with out the equipment we have today .
As a novice this would be a great help to any newbies as we are called..

All the new I know, know more than me and got all the newfangled kit!

I let them get on with it.