Interesting article on 243, BASC magazine

[Smellydog]

I can hear the committee meeting that has been mandated confidential.
The chair...
" A notion has been proposed to hold a referendum by our minions, cough, members sorry on our position regarding the continued use of lead shot on corporate mass slaughter days, cough, sorry, the traditional British shoot."

Bill jumps up! "Hell no man! I've been offered a day at lord Fluffy of Ivory Towers Hall, it's one of the best in the land, a 500 bird day. And I've arranged a photographer to snap me holding a couple of birds and my old loose Lancaster, Lucy I calls it harhar.
Old lord Fluffy has done wonders with them puppets don't you know, a donation here, a donation there. You know, just to hold them off another decade or so...
What...? Oh the wads you say harhar, I'm assured by the photographer that he can airbrush the plastic hill away har har...
Pardon, speak up man......the ferreter, the pot what? Pot hunter....screw them!
Now, I'm off to get my new tweeds fitted but you there, you keep this meeting secret or else....hmmmm....."

 

[25 Sharps]

Why do you need to shoot deer at over 200yards?

Because sometimes that is the shot that presents, and the only option. I Shot a roe buck at 240 yards this evening, sat in a hedge waiting for the deer to come over the boundary. 2 does with 2 followers each and then a buck right on last light.

He came down the bank into the field, limping slightly, I took the shot and dropped him, he fell within 3 yards of where he stood. If I’d walked out onto the stubble field he, or the does, would have spotted me and all trotted off and over the boundary. The ability to take the shot with confidence meant the injured buck didn’t leave the field.

Rifle was a .280 with 124 gr yew tree, had I been shooting the 25-45 with its 80 gr barnes load (similar to .243 ballistics) I would probably have had to let the deer pass as it’s too far for that set up.

 

[Mr. Gain]

BASC has not jumped on any "anti-lead bandwagon", BASC has opposed lead bans for 40 years, and opposed all the HSE lead ban proposals during the 3 year review, and that review took place because of post-Brexit regulations on chemicals to mirror the same EU regs and review of lead in ammunition and hundreds of other hazardous substances - this has been explained to death on here - or are you saying BASC caused Brexit?

As regards the government decision for 2029, BASC is lobbying ministers, backed by technical reports evidencing that .243 should be classed as a small calibre until truly viable lead-free alternatives are available that can deliver humane kills. BASC is also working closely with the Gun Trade Association, British Shooting Sports Council and others to push for a return to a five year shotgun timeline.

BASC did the opposite of opposing a lead ban when it agreed with all the major UK shooting organisations to support a phasing out of lead shot without consulting their members. After that piece of self-harm, there was no way back. All BASC's messaging since then has promoted lead alternatives - focusing on persuading people to accept defeat, and the extra constraints and cost that defeat brings. At no point has BASC tackled the claims made against lead head-on... demanding to see figures for people treated for illness or recorded as dying from ingesting lead ammunition in situations that we not already in breach of safety requirements... questioning the absurd claims made about wildfowl mortality on the basis of a handful of bodies in which lead was present but in which it also could not be confirmed as having caused illness or death, and within populations whose size - if measured over time at all - showed either no reduction, or none directly attributable to lead... not even demanding statements from the food industry about what consumers would or wouldn't buy, even though one high-placed dindicidual has been reported as saying that customers don't like to have metal of any kind in their poultry, but are especially averse to bits of rusty iron... (so hurrah for steel shot!) The campaign against lead ammunition is, and has always been, a campaign against shooting. It has proved a shockingly easy lie to sell - even to those who should have been most wary of it. So, lead-free alternatives are not the point, because lead is not actually a problem that normal, and already existing, safety procedures don't deal with. Lead can indeed exist in very harmful forms in certain contexts, but almost all the forms and contexts it takes in relation to ammunition lack the properties that cause toxic harm, and for the rest, the precautions already advised or required are sufficient. This is not about protecting public safety, or environment - it is about harming shooting, and it is working.

 

[Heym SR20]

Thank you for providing some much needed relief on this thread by sharing that. In fact ninety minutes ago I sauteed some pieces of venison haunch for my twelve year old for his supper.

Meanwhile, friend I was stalking with shared photos he took of the damage the bullet did to the heart and lungs. Clearly most of the lungs and most of the heart still in large pieces so quite how the deer died on the spot is beyond me. I think most of these guys think you need an explosive device to blow up the whole deer to kill them. The hole on the exit side must be a big cleg bite and not an exit wound.

Of course, silly me, deer South of the Border are so much tougher than are soft wee Scottish ones.

Quite how I manage to cleanly kill Roe and Foxes with my 223 and 51gn Peregrine non toxic bullet in a 1 in 12” twist. Indeed quite how I manage to handle a rifle a 24 inch barrel, indeed in the case of the 223 a 26” with moderator let alone carrying a 30” barreled shotgun through the woods is an utter mystery.

Most of those down south with 16” barrels must be utter midgets.

 

[Chris Richardson]

I am surprised you have the gall to come back with this nonsense after the embrassment you have caused yourself in other threads. Have you no shame?

that’s funny I was thinking the same about you why were the minutes confidential?

 

[seedawood]

Because sometimes that is the shot that presents, and the only option. I Shot a roe buck at 240 yards this evening, sat in a hedge waiting for the deer to come over the boundary. 2 does with 2 followers each and then a buck right on last light.

He came down the bank into the field, limping slightly, I took the shot and dropped him, he fell within 3 yards of where he stood. If I’d walked out onto the stubble field he, or the does, would have spotted me and all trotted off and over the boundary. The ability to take the shot with confidence meant the injured buck didn’t leave the field.

Rifle was a .280 with 124 gr yew tree, had I been shooting the 25-45 with its 80 gr barnes load (similar to .243 ballistics) I would probably have had to let the deer pass as it’s too far for that set up.

Thank you. A reasoned, sensible and logical response. Our 'community' needs and deserves a few more.

 

[seedawood]

Another unnecessary and untrue comment and ironic that you are asking me questions and getting answers whilst your own organisation is not giving you any answers. Please stop with this tedious BASC bashing.

Personally I gave up hope that BASC 'bashing' would make any difference when I realised that my sub conscious had titled them "President Blairs back passage".

 

[Donkey Basher]

That example was a fox/barnes 120g/123g in 6.5mm and the reason why is the number for reliable expansion is the 2200fps mark. Maybe slightly lower with fox but only marginally.

Thanks, but where does the 2200fps limit for reliable expansion come from? Granted I’ve not tested the 120gn 6.5 Powerhead Blade bullets yet due to not having enough time to sort a load out for them, but my test last spring of the .308 162gn at 200 yards proved they expand perfectly - with petals rolled back right down to the bottom of the cavity in the front of the bullet, as did a 300+ yard shot on a fallow pricket & a 200+ yard shot on a fallow buck the same evening.

Apologies if I’m being a bit dense, and I’m genuinely not trying to offend or provoke with this comment, but isn’t this sort of statement (just like the BASC article itself) simply perpetuating the myth that ‘we’re all doomed’ once we have to switch to copper?

 

[timbrayford]

An important factor in shooting is confidence, I have lost count of the number of people who have told me "Copper is no good, BASC said so". That attitude is not helpful. Right from the start a ban on lead was inevitable. It is time people got past the wingeing stage and worked out what is best for them.

The most certain cause of failure is to give up before you've succeeded!

The lead ban at the moment is but a proposal with a timetable set to commence in June of next year, no Govt. Bill has been published let alone been enacted into law.

There is still everything to fight for, its not a question of whinging but good old fashioned standing up to the bully boy tactics of the antis!

 

[muddy42]

I just feel the small scale shooters are being ignored in a pathetic attempt to improve the image of industrial driven shooting of thousands of birds, where there is and never will be a market for them to be eaten.

Why the F shouldn't I walk around on my own land and shoot a couple of wild birds with lead shot and then eat them?

 

[Ratel]

Alternatives to lead shot are being used by wildfowlers in the UK for decades and overseas by hunters worldwide. Various research has been done and will continue to be carried out and arguing against science that dates back a century on the toxic impacts of lead shot on birds with 'what ifs' on the alternatives is a futile and even damaging argument against the continued use of lead shot for live quarry shooting. Here is some research:

Effects of Ingested Tungsten-Bismuth-Tin Shot on Captive Mallards​

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258100523_Effects_of_Ingested_Tungsten-Bismuth-Tin_Shot_on_Captive_Mallards

We conclude that TBT shot presents virtually no potential for acute intoxication in mallards under the conditions of our study.

Acute toxicity of lead, steel and an iron-tungsten-nickel shot to mallard ducks​

https://meridian.allenpress.com/jwd/article/39/3/638/122815/ACUTE-TOXICITY-OF-LEAD-STEEL-AND-AN-IRON-TUNGSTEN

There were no significant morphologic or histopathologic abnormalities of the liver and kidney in the H-S and steel shot groups. Results indicated that mallards dosed orally with eight No. 4 H-S pellets were not adversely affected over a 30-day period, and that H-S provides another environmentally safe nontoxic shot for use in waterfowl hunting.

Sorry Connor not interested in stuff from across the pond. This is Britain not the USA.
Let's see some from British results.

 

[Heym SR20]

Sorry Connor not interested in stuff from across the pond. This is Britain not the USA.
Let's see some from British results.

The reason there are few British results is because nobody has funded the research.

And do you really think that waterfowl, birds of prey and animals, including humans react to chemicals differently just because they are in the UK. Do you really believe that British organisms have a fundamentally different biology to that of those in the US or the EU.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

BASC did the opposite of opposing a lead ban when it agreed with all the major UK shooting organisations to support a phasing out of lead shot without consulting their members. After that piece of self-harm, there was no way back. All BASC's messaging since then has promoted lead alternatives - focusing on persuading people to accept defeat, and the extra constraints and cost that defeat brings. At no point has BASC tackled the claims made against lead head-on... demanding to see figures for people treated for illness or recorded as dying from ingesting lead ammunition in situations that we not already in breach of safety requirements... questioning the absurd claims made about wildfowl mortality on the basis of a handful of bodies in which lead was present but in which it also could not be confirmed as having caused illness or death, and within populations whose size - if measured over time at all - showed either no reduction, or none directly attributable to lead... not even demanding statements from the food industry about what consumers would or wouldn't buy, even though one high-placed dindicidual has been reported as saying that customers don't like to have metal of any kind in their poultry, but are especially averse to bits of rusty iron... (so hurrah for steel shot!) The campaign against lead ammunition is, and has always been, a campaign against shooting. It has proved a shockingly easy lie to sell - even to those who should have been most wary of it. So, lead-free alternatives are not the point, because lead is not actually a problem that normal, and already existing, safety procedures don't deal with. Lead can indeed exist in very harmful forms in certain contexts, but almost all the forms and contexts it takes in relation to ammunition lack the properties that cause toxic harm, and for the rest, the precautions already advised or required are sufficient. This is not about protecting public safety, or environment - it is about harming shooting, and it is working.

You have not had the courtesy to address my answer to your question. So let's try again shall we.

BASC has not jumped on any "anti-lead bandwagon", BASC has opposed lead bans for 40 years, and opposed all the HSE lead ban proposals during the 3 year review, and that review took place because of post-Brexit regulations on chemicals to mirror the same EU regs and review of lead in ammunition and hundreds of other hazardous substances - this has been explained to death on here - or are you saying BASC caused Brexit?

 

[Smellydog]

The reason there are few British results is because nobody has funded the research.

And do you really think that waterfowl, birds of prey and animals, including humans react to chemicals differently just because they are in the UK. Do you really believe that British organisms have a fundamentally different biology to that of those in the US or the EU.

It matters not what you, I or anyone else thinks. Where is the British evidence?
There is next to none.

You make me feel nauseous.
One minute you spout some spurious science and in the next breath encouraging unfounded opinion.
Do you work for wild justice?

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Thanks, but where does the 2200fps limit for reliable expansion come from? Granted I’ve not tested the 120gn 6.5 Powerhead Blade bullets yet due to not having enough time to sort a load out for them, but my test last spring of the .308 162gn at 200 yards proved they expand perfectly - with petals rolled back right down to the bottom of the cavity in the front of the bullet, as did a 300+ yard shot on a fallow pricket & a 200+ yard shot on a fallow buck the same evening.

Apologies if I’m being a bit dense, and I’m genuinely not trying to offend or provoke with this comment, but isn’t this sort of statement (just like the BASC article itself) simply perpetuating the myth that ‘we’re all doomed’ once we have to switch to copper?

I'd rather answer the questions so you understand my concerns. Its well documented that a number of lead free ammo has a reliable expansion down to around the 2200fps mark. I'm pretty sure Barnes list that somewhere too but you will have to do some digging. There are a few members on here much more in the know than I that have written about it previously. Dodgyknees did a god write up on it a few years ago and he also did some testing at different ranges if you can dig the thread out.

There any bullets now that will expand at lower velocity, much like the yew tree and some of the virtus offerings. They're more than capable of taking deer out beyond further than what you'd want to shoot live game (excess of 600 yards). The biggest issue ive had with them though is anything closer than 150 yards or so, the petals have on a number of occasions, sheared off and gone through the diaphragm and into the rumen. This is an issue my usual choice,.sierra.TGK's dont have but still have all the positives like proper expansion at distance

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I just feel the small scale shooters are being ignored in a pathetic attempt to improve the image of industrial driven shooting of thousands of birds, where there is and never will be a market for them to be eaten.

Why the F shouldn't I walk around on my own land and shoot a couple of wild birds with lead shot and then eat them?

You do have that choice currently thanks to BASC being opposed to lead bans for 40 years and as a member of this forum you will be surely aware of the many threads discussing the science on the impact of lead shot on birds ingesting that lead shot as grit and seed. So, you will be aware that some of that lead shot you are shooting on your own land is very likely causing suffering and death to some of the wild birds on your land - and now the government wants to ban the use of lead shot for live quarry shooting to reduce the risk of that happening anymore. The same is happening in the EU. This is nothing to do with game shooting and markets for game - surely you don't believe that the pending lead shot ban in Britain and the EU (+NI) is the agenda of this government and all the member states across the EU to support new markets for British game meat?

 

[Tim.243]

You do have that choice currently thanks to BASC being opposed to lead bans for 40 years and as a member of this forum you will be surely aware of the many threads discussing the science on the impact of lead shot on birds ingesting that lead shot as grit and seed. So, you will be aware that some of that lead shot you are shooting on your own land is very likely causing suffering and death to some of the wild birds on your land - and now the government wants to ban the use of lead shot for live quarry shooting to reduce the risk of that happening anymore. The same is happening in the EU. This is nothing to do with game shooting and markets for game - surely you don't believe that the pending lead shot ban in Britain and the EU (+NI) is the agenda of this government and all the member states across the EU to support new markets for British game meat?

Why does Terry not pipe up as he wrote it. works for BASC also a member on here!

 

[Ratel]

The reason there are few British results is because nobody has funded the research.

. Do you really believe that British organisms have a fundamentally different biology to that of those in the US or the EU.

Well if you are so convinced that other metals are harmless go crowd fund research yourself and let us know.
I just don't believe half of what is fed to us, see my previous posts ref partridge. There is every likelihood that if lead ingestion kills birds so will other metals.

 

[seedawood]

The most certain cause of failure is to give up before you've succeeded!

The lead ban at the moment is but a proposal with a timetable set to commence in June of next year, no Govt. Bill has been published let alone been enacted into law.

There is still everything to fight for, its not a question of whinging but good old fashioned standing up to the bully boy tactics of the antis!

Sorry but it's not just 'antis' . The vast majority of the public get their misconceptions from the press (or nonsense on forums). Antis, or press wanting to engage more readers, or failing governments wanting to win a few easy brownie points for the next election (think that covers all of them since 1944...) will warp whatever 'data' is available to suit their agenda. " If a lie is big enough and you repeat it often enough people will believe it." Joseph Geobbels. (Aka Hitlers spin doctor)
Personally I don't care how much lead other people choose to feed their families, I prefer not to. Expecting game dealers trying to maintain sales and the general public to accept a product contaminated with a substance that they have repeated been told is potentially damaging to their health is naive in the extreme.
Using non toxic (and non polluting) ammunition is not "working with the enemy" it is proving to the wider public that 'We' are prepared to make small changes, even minor compromises, to protect public health, the environment and ultimately our sport and livelihoods.

 

[seedawood]

Sorry Connor not interested in stuff from across the pond. This is Britain not the USA.
Let's see some from British results.

As the 'lead ammunition ban' historically started with introduced (alien) 'California Condors' it is obvious that everybody else with an interest (vested or otherwise) is happy to use ANY available reports. Science 101-" The more data you have the more true and opposing conclusions you can draw from it".