Condemned

[Freeforester]

I had the same, shot 6 in an hour one night, all lardered at the same time, stored in the same chill - sika stag condemned as it was apparently decomposing.
Emailed them asking how that's possible and was told they don't have a clue as it's down to the vet inspecting, offered to ask him for me but told me they do that many he wouldn't remember probably.
An absolute joke at times.

Seems to be something other than beginning with J, given the cold chain continuity, there is no possibility for bacteria to develop in the manner suggested, until that cold chain is broken.

The absence of photographic evidence and inability to retrieve the carcass despite it clearly being still within reach up to the point of condemnation rather suggests a word beginning with F to my mind. One would imagine a game dealer might want to have procedures in place in order to indemnify himself against any such accusations too.

It’s possible to slit the veins where they leave the haunches in order to pump out any residual blood in the unlikely scenario that the carcass was insufficiently exsanguinated at the time of the shot. Similarly, it’s possible to positively identify a carcass against another by making a similar mark or marks on certain areas of the skin, unique to yourself. Three such tiny marks will positively identify your carcass against another.
I know one estate owner who managed to get to the bottom of a laundering scheme by inserting a sixpence between the skin and carcass, and with the cooperation of both police and the dealer identify who was involved in the ‘play’.

 

[NickJ]

I wonder if bleeding has anything to do with it. If head shot the only effective bleeding will be the major vessels leaving residual blood in the carcass and so more at risk of microbial growth.
In fairness, I am struggling to find quality evidence for or against this!

At our recent (BDS) course Peter Green the leading deer vet in the UK reckoned that an head shot animal needs to be bled within just a few minutes for the carcass not to spoil

 

[Buchan]

At our recent (BDS) course Peter Green the leading deer vet in the UK reckoned that an head shot animal needs to be bled within just a few minutes for the carcass not to spoil

Reasons for condemnation would include pooling of blood where a carcass has been lying before collection and during transport, and bacterial spoilage - which can be rapid. A carcass cools at about 1 degree per hour so from 38.5 it's quite a while before it gets low enough to prevent spoilage. So have an unbled carcass that stays on the same side and stays warmish, and you have spoilage.

 

[wildfowler.250]

I’m never entirely sure why people are so reluctant to name the businesses involved in these threads. If they’re doing nothing wrong then what’s the issue.

Seems reasonable to have video/photo evidence of the deer sent to you from the dealer if they’re going to put you out of pocket. After all, the carcass should be tagged and so on. I don’t sell venison myself but seems like someone is doing a fast one.

 

[Leec6.5]

I’m never entirely sure why people are so reluctant to name the businesses involved in these threads. If they’re doing nothing wrong then what’s the issue.

Seems reasonable to have video/photo evidence of the deer sent to you from the dealer if they’re going to put you out of pocket. After all, the carcass should be tagged and so on. I don’t sell venison myself but seems like someone is doing a fast one.

Because if they name and shame, the dealers will find out who they are (it’s a small world!) and that will shut the door and when you have know where else to go your buggered!

Had it happen to me, 3 months late with payment, I named and shamed and that door is now closed.

 

[wildfowler.250]

Because if they name and shame, the dealers will find out who they are (it’s a small world!) and that will shut the door and when you have know where else to go your buggered!

Had it happen to me, 3 months late with payment, I named and shamed and that door is now closed.

Sounds great. Suspect business tactics and no one can/will do anything about it due to limited other options.

The whole game dealer industry seems off. I’m still not sure why roe haven’t gone up to their pre Covid price. Probably because folk are happy to take anything for them.

 

[HonestJohn]

Didn’t he already state it was highland game?

 

[Leec6.5]

Sounds great. Suspect business tactics and no one can/will do anything about it due to limited other options.

The whole game dealer industry seems off. I’m still not sure why roe haven’t gone up to their pre Covid price. Probably because folk are happy to take anything for them.

The price won’t go up simple as, thermal and the carcass numbers that have increased with thermal imaging equipment etc have condemned carcass prices too many of being shot now

 

[wildfowler.250]

Didn’t he already state it was highland game?

Possibly, will read back through. But it’s a trend in general on here that folk are very discrete about naming dealers or naming prices etc. Less of a band together and more for everyone out for themselves

 

[David Barker]

If a clean carcase is turned down and the majority are from Contractors i am sure HG must be out of buisness by now. Or they still use the perfectly clean carcases with out paying.

 

[Dave_45]

Ben Rigby is starting to gain more footholds to Scotland Bugsy, get on the phone

 

[VSS]

If a game dealer is buying carcasses "in skin" then they shouldn't subsequently refuse to pay for a carcass after skinning. The skin on price is pegged sufficiently low to allow for a degree of wasteage. They should reject them at the door, or not at all. (And personally I believe a lot more carcases should be rejected at the door).
And if a carcass is rejected it should always be made available for the consignor to view it.

A possibly fairer system would be for all carcasses to be graded and priced after skinning.

Incidentally, if I sell fat lambs through the live market (effectively selling them "in skin"), and they're bought by an abattoir, and one is subsequently rejected on inspection of the carcass, that's their problem not mine. I've already been paid for the lambs "sold as seen" by this stage.
However, if I sell lambs directly to an abattoir, and am being paid on a deadweight basis, and one is rejected, I don’t get paid for it.

 

[HonestJohn]

If a game dealer is buying carcasses "in skin" then they shouldn't subsequently refuse to pay for a carcass after skinning. The skin on price is pegged sufficiently low to allow for a degree of wasteage. They should reject them at the door, or not at all. (And personally I believe a lot more carcases should be rejected at the door).
And if a carcass is rejected it should always be made available for the consignor to view it.

A possibly fairer system would be for all carcasses to be graded and priced after skinning.

Incidentally, if I sell fat lambs through the live market (effectively selling them "in skin"), and they're bought by an abattoir, and one is subsequently rejected on inspection of the carcass, that's their problem not mine. I've already been paid for the lambs "sold as seen" by this stage.
However, if I sell lambs directly to an abattoir, and am being paid on a deadweight basis, and one is rejected, I don’t get paid for it.

Sounds fair! It doesn’t work like that in the real world of GD’s though / sadly

 

[VSS]

Sounds fair! It doesn’t work like that in the real world of GD’s though / sadly

Well you either accept the current system, and take the occasional hit, or you change the system.

 

[HonestJohn]

Well you either accept the current system, and take the occasional hit, or you change the system.

How would you propose changing the system? Tell the GD you want it your way or you’ll starve them of selling game? They’ll be laughing as you drive away

Alternative is to set up as a new more ‘fair GD’ regionally and try to win the others market share

 

[VSS]

How would you propose changing the system? Tell the GD you want it your way or you’ll starve them of selling game? They’ll be laughing as you drive away

Alternative is to set up as a new more ‘fair GD’ regionally and try to win the others market share

Well you'd start be insisting on any rejected carcasses being available for viewing. After all, they still belong to you at that point if they haven't yet been paid for, so the GD has no right to dispose of what isn't his. He's either got to be able to produce the carcass for you, or pay you for it.
But of course, you'd have to be prepared to pay disposal costs for condemned carcasses, or take them away. Which I think is fair enough.

 

[Mungo]

At our recent (BDS) course Peter Green the leading deer vet in the UK reckoned that an head shot animal needs to be bled within just a few minutes for the carcass not to spoil

How do you bleed a carcass once the heart stops?

 

[South of the M4]

The response was as follows

"Hi XXXX
I can see that both carcasses were handled in a similar way both by yourself and here at Highland Game. The were even a similar weight which can sometimes make a difference. I cannot explain what has happened. I have copied in the vet who rejected the carcass, and she may be able to give more information about what can happen but the decisions are make independently of Highland Game staff.

Sorry I can’t be of more help on this occasion.
Regards"

Needless to say, I received no response from the Vet in question - seem that the Vets are a making the calls??
B

To be fair to the dealer, it's not them that condemns carcasses. It's always been the case, across the entire meat industry, that vets/inspectors are an independent 3rd party. Historically employed by the local authority, then more recently by the Meat Hygiene Service, then DEFRA.
Having no commercial interest in the carcasses, they are free to condemn as they see fit, not pressed into passing borderline carcasses as it will cost the premise owner money but compromise public safety.

The issue come when a vet, used to working in a modern sheep/beef/pig plant, is then transferred to a game facility. To them, it's a horror show.

My own dealer has had these issues, he rues the day his old inspectors were replaced with (often Spanish or Italian) young vets.
Different 'rules' apply at a AGHE, it's not possible to work to domestic red meat standards.
Examples? External contamination, a little light mould on the inner surface of the ribs that are discarded when skinned and boned out, not knowing how long it took for the animal to be bled or eviscerated so look 'suspect'.
Few carcasses at the dealer would pass the more stringent domesticated animal parameters, but nobody died with the more laissez faire approach.

I'm not saying that there are no rogue dealers about, but condemning carcasses is not in their interest per se.

 

[muddy42]

Can you not insist to see the vets certificate? the vet is a independent third party, regulated and hopefully more concerned about their reputation.

As above the issue arises when vets come from the sheep/pig/beef world. Here slaughtering happens in laboratory conditions that its almost impossible to replicate in the wild. A friend at SNH (or whatever its called now) told me that a few years ago the food standards people asked for deer to be immediately suspended gralloched, tagged and placed in a body bag in a chilled vehicle, all in the field!

 

[75]

How do you bleed a carcass once the heart stops?

I debated putting a similar comment up here yesterday. I know Peter is a very, very well respected vet but I don't follow the comment:

At our recent (BDS) course Peter Green the leading deer vet in the UK reckoned that an head shot animal needs to be bled within just a few minutes for the carcass not to spoil

@NickJ - are you able to elaborate at all? There's no pressure in the system once the heart stops beating so by poking knife in its chest all you are doing is letting out a bit of blood that would be in the heart and main vessels in the chest cavity - which would all come out during gralloch anyway. I could never see a mechanism for bloody migrating out of, say, haunches in these circumstances.