Lead ban date announced

[Heym SR20]

Then you can have green soup with your venison

For some peoples, the green soup is a delicacy and often their only source of green vegetable matter.

 

[Apthorpe]

Manufacturing of Copper Bullets.

Two main methods. Stamping and Swaging - using large stamping machines with dies, a piece of copper is bashed into the shape of a bullet over several steps. This is how the vast majority of bullets ate produced on an industrial scale. With traditional bullets, part of the process includes feeding in a lead wire and then swaging the jacket around the core.

This is a capital intensive process with very expensive dies being made for each bullet type, but these last for a few million bullets produced.

This is how military, and most cheap ammunition is produced.

Expensive to set up, but low cost per unit produced, especially once all the assets have written right down.

Very capital intensive to set up a new production run, or to introduce a new shape or design of bullet. And it probably takes a few days to switch from one product to another when running a production run.

2) small scale machining. Much easier to do with a monolithic bullet than a two dissimilar cored bullet, but you start with a rod of copper or brass (an alloy of Copper with Zinc), chuck it in a lathe and turn up a bullet. It is no more or less difficult than mass producing other parts such as a bolt. With a simple copying jig on a basic lathe and a machinest to run it, you can make very good bullets. Cost of labour would be high though per unit.

Most monolithic bullet manufacturers will use an automatic CNC controlled lathe. Such machines are readily available and not a huge cost. Bullets are designed on CAD, translated into a CNC File and loaded into the system. It takes very little time to switch production across from say a 130gn 7mm bullet to a 120gn 6.5mm bullet.

But most of production has been to date relatively small scale production in small designer owned businesses with all the design work being recouped in the first years of production.

When you buy a cup and core bullet, it was designed 60 years ago, probably made on machinery 60 plus years old and fully depreciated.

Spurious. See above "but these last for a few million bullets" - evidently the tooling would have needed replacement more recently than 60 years in the majority of cases. Barnes uses old equipment too, so that will also be depreciated, and in accordance with your idea would therefore be considerably cheaper.
I use lead bullets designed in 2012 (ELD-X) while the copper Barnes TTSX was designed in 2003.

When you buy a copper bullet you are still paying for all the design work and testing that went into the bullet.

You will also be paying for CNC tooling as this will yet to be depreciated.

See above. Neither claim is convincing.

As always as volumes go up, prices will come down.

This is not an "as always". Often that is the case, but often the opposite is the case.

At the retail end, RFDs are currently having to carry all types of ammunition, so you are paying for cost of such ammo sitting in the warehouse and on dealers shelves.

Not much. Most RFDs hold pretty small stocks. In any event, the argument is unconvincing because that factor would affect lead and copper ammunition to an equal extent.

The UK is not a large market, but it’s a significant market for ammunition. At present copper is a premium product and price accordingly.

Now that are definitive dates and certainty, manufacturers and suppliers can start investing for the future demand.

Some will stick their heads in the sand, whinge hugely and go out of business.

Others will make good decisions and see the opportunity.

Unbelievable

 

[Apthorpe]

Mmmm. No. You are already having to swage copper sheet into copper cups to take a lead core for a lead bullet.

If you are swaging / stamping solid copper bullets there are many fewer processes than in producing a lead cored bullet. Hence less machine time and cheaper manufacturing.

Barnes does this sort of thing and glhsve been for decades, yet the bullets are still twice the price

Most current production of copper bullets is on CNC milling - less capex cost, but slower production rates.

Where did you originate this fact? Is there any data on it or are you just assuming?

Once manufacturing is switched to high volume stamping and swaging production costs will come down.

Copper ammunition is sold at a premium. Again as volumes go up there will be much competition and thus prices will come down.

There already appears to be considerable competition with many manufacturers....still no sign of the supposedly consequent price reductions. By what year do you expect this to happen given that copper manufacturers have been mass producing for over two decades and apparently none of these reductions has yet occurred?

Regardless, the actual cost of ammunition is a very small part of the cost of stalking.

That depends on people's personal arrangements and is not relevant anyway.

Most lead ammo is £30 to £40 a box of 20. Copper is £50 to £70 a box for same number.

Last weekend we shot 8 deer, that was 8 bullets used. We drove 150 miles and spent £40 each on b’fast on way up and a good meal on way back.

Last week, I walked out of the door, shot three deer and the cost of the ammunition was 100% of the cost of stalking. Equally irrelevant.

And colleagues running a few thousand pounds worth of electronic vision equipment.

So really the extra cost of copper bullets is pretty minimal in the great scheme of things.

It's not when it also requires people to buy new guns or where irreplaceable guns are rendered unusable. At best, it doubles the cost for people who fire ammunition at a greater rate than 8 or 10 rounds a week.

The whole thing is a delusional group idiocy, a large mental leap backwards for no real purpose at all. Nothing will be improved by binning lead ammunition. No species will do better. Nobody will be better off. None of the benefits claimed by the scientifically illiterate and economically retarded will eventuate. All for the simple reason that anti-lead proponents are simply wrong.

 

[Liveonce]

Mmmm. No. You are already having to swage copper sheet into copper cups to take a lead core for a lead bullet.

If you are swaging / stamping solid copper bullets there are many fewer processes than in producing a lead cored bullet. Hence less machine time and cheaper manufacturing.

Most current production of copper bullets is on CNC milling - less capex cost, but slower production rates.

Once manufacturing is switched to high volume stamping and swaging production costs will come down.

Copper ammunition is sold at a premium. Again as volumes go up there will be much competition and thus prices will come down.

Regardless, the actual cost of ammunition is a very small part of the cost of stalking.

Most lead ammo is £30 to £40 a box of 20. Copper is £50 to £70 a box for same number.

Last weekend we shot 8 deer, that was 8 bullets used. We drove 150 miles and spent £40 each on b’fast on way up and a good meal on way back.

And colleagues running a few thousand pounds worth of electronic vision equipment.

So really the extra cost of copper bullets is pretty minimal in the great scheme of things.

I agree with your latter comments, re cost vs bullet costs.

I doubt they stamp out complete copper bullets, copper jackets are manufacture by drawing copper starting with a small thin disc, which is drawn, annealed, cleaned and then repeated again if required to produce the jacket.

That requires far less press pressure than stamping out a complete solid copper bullet, machines may exist to do that but never seen one possibly because the need for such a machine in bullet manufacturing has not historically been required. Hence solid copper bullets all look to be produced by turning on a lathe from copper bar stock.

Copper bar stock is more expensive to buy than copper sheet, even bar stock price per kg depends on the profile of the bar stock. Have you ever purchased metals form the likes of smiths metal centres?

 

[Smellydog]

If they monitor the shooting forums, which they do - they will already have a shortlist of whose mattresses to look under

The classic British I fear the establishment.
Is there anything in law that prevents one from storing lead ammunition?

 

[Mickeydredd]

I’m really not fussed either way. I have perfectly effective loads in copper or lead for everything I shoot.

Been obvious for years it was going to end up this way.

Are you suggesting it isn’t BASC’s fault…..?

 

[Dunwaters]

The classic British I fear the establishment.
Is there anything in law that prevents one from storing lead ammunition?

Not yet, but the proposed legislation bans “ the sale, use and possession” of lead ammunition post transition period.

 

[Mike L]

I saw that, they snuck ‘ possession’ in.

 

[Dunwaters]

Are you suggesting it isn’t BASC’s fault…..?

It’s not a suggestion, thats a flat fact. BASC and every other shooting organisation fought the ban. The problem they faced was the REACH conclusion that lead is harmful with no safe level of exposure. That comes from the WHO and no one has been able to contradict the science.
BASC had absolutely nothing to do with UK or EU REACH policy dictating a ban on lead ammunition.
BASC did indeed change tack once they saw which way the wind was shifting, there was the ill considered and unsupported
“ voluntary ban”. However, they haven’t done too badly, you get to keep your air guns, rim fires and small centre fire rifles.
Look at what’s actually being introduced and compare it with the original proposal if you don’t believe me

 

[Dunwaters]

I saw that, they snuck ‘ possession’ in.

Looks like somebody was paying attention during the previous 30 years of negotiations with the shooting organisations that went nowhere…

 

[Smellydog]

Not yet, but the proposed legislation bans “ the sale, use and possession” of lead ammunition post transition period.

Just ammunition?

 

[Mike1979]

Just ammunition?

All that lead flashing from the church roof is ok mate...the day they ban lead entirely is the day that we are screwed

 

[ammcknockiter]

how they going to police it?

Who’s going to stop you buying lead bullets in bulk, between then and now?

On the deercast podcast it was suggested that you would have to have a variation on your licence to hold lead ammo.

So that'll mean a nice money earner and I reason come inspect your ammo gun safe.

I wouldn't be surprised if we all end up just handing unused lead ammo to the police unless we have a range to shoot it at

 

[WW.]

On the deercast podcast it was suggested that you would have to have a variation on your licence to hold lead ammo.

So that'll mean a nice money earner and I reason come inspect your ammo gun safe.

I wouldn't be surprised if we all end up just handing unused lead ammo to the police unless we have a range to shoot it at

If it comes in we can arrange a mass ranges day across the country just before the deadline to use up unused ammo and commiserate together.

 

[muddy42]

On the deercast podcast it was suggested that you would have to have a variation on your licence to hold lead ammo.

So that'll mean a nice money earner and I reason come inspect your ammo gun safe.

I wouldn't be surprised if we all end up just handing unused lead ammo to the police unless we have a range to shoot it at

What about people who want to open up the crimp, tip out the lead, reload with steel and cup and re-crimp?
If bismuth 28 bore/410/2 inch 12 bore remains above £2.20 per cartridge, it could be an option.
Its been a while since I used my Lee Loader for cartridges and I appreciate wads and cups to hold steel shot have improved a lot, so I'll need to do a bit of learning and refining.

 

[WW.]

Maybe we could argue for a 141 amnesty scheme to exchange lead ammo for copper? Doubt it would take off but wouldn't it be nice.

 

[muddy42]

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

On the deercast podcast it was suggested that you would have to have a variation on your licence to hold lead ammo.

So that'll mean a nice money earner and I reason come inspect your ammo gun safe.

I wouldn't be surprised if we all end up just handing unused lead ammo to the police unless we have a range to shoot it at

If that’s a case I’ll need to be compensated

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

If it comes in we can arrange a mass ranges day across the country just before the deadline to use up unused ammo and commiserate together.

Waste of good bullets, they have to buy them back simple as that

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Not yet, but the proposed legislation bans “ the sale, use and possession” of lead ammunition post transition period.

Again how they going to police it?

That’s a lot of search warrants