Moderators off ticket tomorrow then ..

[cjm1066]

That some FEO are not well briefed is well known.

If they try and refuse a renewal because they won't apply the law, that needs challenging.

What are you going to do if you list your moderators on your renewal and your new certificate omits them?

Read the BASC guide, simples.

 

[M@tt]

You're being a bit over dramatic.
If you're worried, just add them and get on with it....
You're going to do what you want despite what the advice you asked for says do, so do it your way.
No need to keep going on about it.

ETA: I see you did what you wanted in the end after all and despite the advice. It'll still be good, and you'll get your renewed FAC back soon, I hope, but this is BCH after all.

 

[TringSaint]

Ah ok - bit of a moot point then and lots of time wasted arguing/discussing something none of us can impact...

But too be clear - it is not social media here it is the HO circular, the Act and an organsiation representing the shooting community saying these things......not some bloke on faceache.....

I would still recommend anyone doing their renewal right now to simply list them and be safe.
Afterall if they do the opposite and end up in a wrangle then no one on here is going to help!!

 

[TringSaint]

That some FEO are not well briefed is well known.

If they try and refuse a renewal because they won't apply the law, that needs challenging.

What are you going to do if you list your moderators on your renewal and your new certificate omits them?

Read the BASC guide, simples.

Yes, I get that they might not be on my new ticket, but they are on this one and at the time of applying there was nothing to suggest what the correct procedure was so……..

 

[TringSaint]

You're being a bit over dramatic.
If you're worried, just add them and get on with it....
You're going to do what you want despite what the advice you asked for says do, so do it your way.
No need to keep going on about it.

ETA: I see you did what you wanted in the end after all and despite the advice. It'll still be good, and you'll get your renewed FAC back soon, I hope, but this is BCH after all.

BCH??

 

[Klenchblaize]

How do you sell a moderator that is chambering-specific (6MM PPC not generic 243/6MM), has a serial number and has been Proof Marked based on the rifle it was submitted with for test?

K

 

[20-250]

Yes, I get that they might not be on my new ticket, but they are on this one and at the time of applying there was nothing to suggest what the correct procedure was so……..

You recommend that people list things which aren't firearms on a firearm certificate renewal application? Get real.
I can't see the box to declare my truck, knives, hammers, screwdrivers or boots in. They're all as relevant to a renewal as your moderators...

 

[20-250]

How do you sell a moderator that is chambering-specific (6MM PPC not generic 243/6MM), has a serial number and has been Proof Marked based on the rifle it was submitted with for test?

K

Same way as you sell any other moderator.

 

[M@tt]

BCH??

BCH is your Police Licensing Area if you live in Tring.

Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire, Hertfordshire.

 

[M@tt]

How do you sell a moderator that is chambering-specific (6MM PPC not generic 243/6MM), has a serial number and has been Proof Marked based on the rifle it was submitted with for test?

K

Klenchblaize: Do you want this mod?
Buyer: Yes, please.

Job done.

 

[Dalua]

any help that it will not bite you on the bum, they are no longer regarded as firearms, simple as that View attachment 482197

The only bit here which seems debateable is the 5th bullet-point.
It seems to me that the only moderators which may be possessed lawfully only by an FAC-holder are those which are attached to an S1 firearm.
As this document is about unattached moderators only, I don't think anyone needs to hold an FAC to possess them lawfully. The 'buyer' here needs to hold an FAC to possess the moderator once he attaches the moderator to a S1 firearm i.e. he turns the moderator into 'an accessory to' a S1 firearm, making that moderator while it is on the S1 firearm a 'relevant accessory'. Once he takes it off the S1 firearm, it turns back into a saggy old cloth cat, a little loose at the seams, which is not subject to any kind of restrictions at all.

To me, it appears that this change has clarified the previous position that moderators of any kind unattached to S1 firearms are not subject to FAC control, and has removed the need for the workaround which was introduced to try to make sense of this, whereby a moderator attached to an S1 firearm needed to occupy a 'slot' while it was attached to that firearm.

Any other understanding still seems to leave owners of airgun moderators at risk of being accused of unlawful possession of something-or-other.

 

[Dalua]

How do you sell a moderator that is chambering-specific (6MM PPC not generic 243/6MM), has a serial number and has been Proof Marked based on the rifle it was submitted with for test?

K

I'd say just make sure you remember to take it off the rifle before handing it to its new owner

 

[Liveonce]

The only bit here which seems debateable is the 5th bullet-point.
It seems to me that the only moderators which may be possessed lawfully only by an FAC-holder are those which are attached to an S1 firearm.
As this document is about unattached moderators only, I don't think anyone needs to hold an FAC to possess them lawfully. The 'buyer' here needs to hold an FAC to possess the moderator once he attaches the moderator to a S1 firearm i.e. he turns the moderator into 'an accessory to' a S1 firearm, making that moderator while it is on the S1 firearm a 'relevant accessory'. Once he takes it off the S1 firearm, it turns back into a saggy old cloth cat, a little loose at the seams, which is not subject to any kind of restrictions at all.

To me, it appears that this change has clarified the previous position that moderators of any kind unattached to S1 firearms are not subject to FAC control, and has removed the need for the workaround which was introduced to try to make sense of this, whereby a moderator attached to an S1 firearm needed to occupy a 'slot' while it was attached to that firearm.

Any other understanding still seems to leave owners of airgun moderators at risk of being accused of unlawful possession of something-or-other.

not so sure, if you possess a sound moderator intended for firearm or shotgun without a certificate then it’s a summary only offence, it does not need to be attached to the firearm. Or that’s how i read it.

Then the grey part of the proof act, whilst a sound moderator does not need to be proofed to be sold if it’s not and you attach it to section 1 rifle then it takes the rifle (or shotgun) out of proof. It’s illegal to sell an out of proof firearm so beware.

Firearms (Section 44, Schedule 5)​

Contact: Firearms.Weapons.Policy.Unit@homeoffice.gov.uk

7. Section 44 and Schedule 5 are concerned with the de-regulation of sound moderators and flash suppressors. These items were subject to control by virtue of the fact that they were included in the statutory definition of a firearm, set out in section 57 of the Firearms Act 1968 (the 1968 Act). Firearms licence holders with a legitimate need for these items were required to apply to the police to include them on their existing firearms licence, at a cost to both the police and the licence holder. Removing them from the legal definition of a firearm will alleviate the significant administrative burden on police firearms licencing departments who will no longer be required to process applications. It will benefit firearm certificate holders who will no longer be required to apply for, and pay for, a variation of their licence each time they acquire or dispose of a sound moderator, and it will also generate savings for Registered Firearms Dealers by removing the need to keep a record of transactions.

8. Subsection 44(2) adds a new section 2A to the 1968 Act creating a summary only offence of possessing a relevant accessory without having a valid firearm or shotgun certificate, or without an exemption applying. This ensures that these devices are held lawfully only by those with a legitimate purpose and who have been subject to full suitability checks to possess a firearm. A “relevant accessory” is defined as an accessory to a firearm to which section 1 applies which is designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the firearm. The maximum penalty for the offence is a Level 3 fine.

9. The offence applies to section 1 firearms only. This is because the definition of a sound moderator in the 1968 Act related to the definition of a firearm in section 57 of the 1968 Act, but not to a shotgun or air weapon. Moderators for air weapons and shotguns can already be held without the need for a certificate and that will continue to be the case. If an air weapon moderator is fitted to a section 1 firearm and the owner does not have a firearm or shotgun certificate or without an exemption applying, they will not be in lawful possession of either.

10. Schedule 5 amends the provisions in the 1968 Act and the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 which allow a person to possess a firearm without holding a firearm or shotgun certificate. As set out in the Explanatory Notes, this will allow a person to possess a relevant accessory as well as a firearm without holding a certificate.

11. These measures extend and apply to England and Wales and Scotland.

 

[Dalua]

not so sure, if you possess a sound moderator intended for firearm or shotgun without a certificate then it’s a summary only offence, it does not need to be attached to the firearm. Or that’s how i read it.

I don't know where the 'intended' bit comes in? The law says, and it's repeated below, that a 'relevant accessory' is 'an accessory to an S1 firearm' - not a thing which might at some point have been an accessory to one, or which might at another time in the future be an accessory to one - but a moderator which actually is an accessory to a S1 firearm.

Then the grey part of the proof act, whilst a sound moderator does not need to be proofed to be sold if it’s not and you attach it to section 1 rifle then it takes the rifle (or shotgun) out of proof. It’s illegal to sell an out of proof firearm so beware.

I'm not sure the Proof Act is grey here either. One has to beware of the wishful thinking of the proof-masters - but I suppose the moderator could be considered 'part of the barrel' if it's attached to a barrel - which would make it liable to be proofed. However, I'm not sure a thing can be both an actual part of another things at the same time as being an accessory to it?

Firearms (Section 44, Schedule 5)​

Contact: Firearms.Weapons.Policy.Unit@homeoffice.gov.uk

7. Section 44 and Schedule 5 are concerned with the de-regulation of sound moderators and flash suppressors. These items were subject to control by virtue of the fact that they were included in the statutory definition of a firearm, set out in section 57 of the Firearms Act 1968 (the 1968 Act). Firearms licence holders with a legitimate need for these items were required to apply to the police to include them on their existing firearms licence, at a cost to both the police and the licence holder. Removing them from the legal definition of a firearm will alleviate the significant administrative burden on police firearms licencing departments who will no longer be required to process applications. It will benefit firearm certificate holders who will no longer be required to apply for, and pay for, a variation of their licence each time they acquire or dispose of a sound moderator, and it will also generate savings for Registered Firearms Dealers by removing the need to keep a record of transactions.

8. Subsection 44(2) adds a new section 2A to the 1968 Act creating a summary only offence of possessing a relevant accessory without having a valid firearm or shotgun certificate, or without an exemption applying. This ensures that these devices are held lawfully only by those with a legitimate purpose and who have been subject to full suitability checks to possess a firearm. A “relevant accessory” is defined as an accessory to a firearm to which section 1 applies which is designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the firearm. The maximum penalty for the offence is a Level 3 fine.

9. The offence applies to section 1 firearms only. This is because the definition of a sound moderator in the 1968 Act related to the definition of a firearm in section 57 of the 1968 Act, but not to a shotgun or air weapon. Moderators for air weapons and shotguns can already be held without the need for a certificate and that will continue to be the case. If an air weapon moderator is fitted to a section 1 firearm and the owner does not have a firearm or shotgun certificate or without an exemption applying, they will not be in lawful possession of either.

This quite helpful clarifies that an 'air weapon moderator' is fitted to a S1 firearm, then the owner of the S1 firearm will be in unlawful possession of that moderator. The law is already clear that a moderator on a non-FAC airgun or a S2 shotgun is not subject to controls. As there's no definition of an 'air weapon moderator' or 'a S2 shotgun moderator', and an air weapon moderator would generally work on an S1 air weapon, it does seem that the property which made a moderator need an FAC-slot, and what now make it necessary to hold an FAC lawfully to possess it, it its actual attachment to a S1 firearm. That being so, and it being clear that if it is then attached to a non-FAC airgun or a S2 shotgun it requires no FAC-holding to possess, it seems reasonable to conclude that once take off the S1 firearm one no longer needs an FAC to possess it. If it did, it seems unlikely that as an FAC-holder you'd be allowed to sell it to a non-FAC-holder: something which seems now to be permitted. And it makes sense to me that it is permitted - since the onus is then on the buyer to be sure he's got an FAC before he can fit it lawfully to his S1 firearm.

10. Schedule 5 amends the provisions in the 1968 Act and the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 which allow a person to possess a firearm without holding a firearm or shotgun certificate. As set out in the Explanatory Notes, this will allow a person to possess a relevant accessory as well as a firearm without holding a certificate.

11. These measures extend and apply to England and Wales and Scotland.

 

[TringSaint]

BCH is your Police Licensing Area if you live in Tring.

Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire, Hertfordshire.

I have them the other way round! HCB!