I'm shooting a 45/70 in a marlin carbine not sure of the barrel length but around 16-18". I'm using 300g Remmington bullets HP ans Vhit 120. With a small a low mag scope it's holding 2" groups at 100m with a MV OF 2175fps I have not had a issue with shooting reds at all. Even if you hit the shoulder the damage is very minimal, I bought it as a fun gun to shoot lead at the range. It's certianly comes stalking quite a bit.
45/70 or 30/30? Marlin
- Thread starter North Cornwall Deer
- Start date
It's funny. I have been shooting 45-70 since I was 19 and have never worried about the bullet construction. 400 grain cast out of a Trapdoor Springfield at black powder velocities, or a 300 JFP out of my Siamese Mauser at primer flattening pressures gave the same results. A .457" diameter hole in and at worst, a .457" diameter going out. If one's 243 bullet expanded to .457" while exiting they would say that the bullet worked well!
I never purposely shoot at the shoulder of a deer with a 45-70 -it messes up too much meat. A heart/lung shot will have even large deer down in a hurry. The worst kill I made was a mule deer doe running up the opposite side of a small ravine I was standing on the edge of. I put a 330 grain Cast HP from my Siamese Mauser @ 1800 fps between her shoulders and she hit the ground like the Hand of God had put her there. Hitting on the spine, the bullet left a hole I could stick my hand through. Since then, I only aim for the softer parts of deer anatomy with my 45-70.~Muir
What is this velocity requirement? Does it have a bullet weight to go with it?
If you stoke up a .45-70 or .444 to 2,450 fps, you will not be using the heavier bullets which perform best on big game. And you will have to use the longer barrel rifles to achieve it, with about 3x the recoil of a .30-30. My Marlin 336RC Deluxe with its 24-inch barrel does 2,500 fps with ease, but it is not the handy woods rifle which the 20-inch carbine is.
The .30-30 will do it with hotter 150-gr bullets, some FTX ( flex tip ) loads, and with 130-gr Barnes ( as the first bullet, followed by FN ammunition).
The higher velocity lever actions are the Winchester 1895, a big rifle in .30-06 or .270, and the Savage 99s, if you still want to stay with century-old rifles from the Old West. Only the Savage 99 carbines are in the weight and size of the Marlin 336, for a handy tracking rifle.
After that, for velocity and power, you pretty much have to go to an older Sako, a Winchester Model 71 or the Browning reproduction ( both wonderful quality ), or the Browning BLR. I have a BLR Lightweight in 7mm-08, and it is the heir to the Win 71, with a rack and pinion mechanism but a rotating, locking bolt. The BLR is light and handy, and comes in magnums, and take down models, where you can buy extra barrels - a whole different trip than a Winchester 94 or Marlin 336 in .30-30.
Don't forget the modern 1886. I've worked up loads in this and my no. 1 that were biting on the ankles of the .458 win mag. Absolutely not necessary, but can be done in the right action. Again, I don't think this is necessary or desirable. Just want to illustrate that the 1886 is likely the strongest lever action ever engineered, a characterization often bestowed upon the "Guide Gun."
I hardcast exclusively for my .45-70. 405gr .45 cal bullet plugging away at around 1700-1800 fps (w/gas check) is bad medicine for any animal in Canada/Alaska.
If I could only hunt with one gun for both prairie and bush, I would probably do a BLR takedown in .338 Federal w/quick detach scope mounts so I had the option of 2-7x and maybe a red dot or even aperture sights. They are pretty much lever bolt guns.
I didn't mention the 1886 because it is usually found ( Winchester or Browning repro) in the full rifle, which is larger and heavier that what the OP said he wanted.
No doubt it is a wonderful rifle. The smooth rack and pinion with the dual locking lugs at the rear is very strong. The Model 71 is basically the same action, using a high pressure cartridge, the .348 Winchester. A friend has a restored Winchester 1886 in .45-70, but only shoots soft loads in it. I have a M-71 Deluxe, and those who think they need 3,000 fps to produce "hydrostatic shock", just need to see what a 200-gr bullet with 65 grains of H-4831 will do - everything is knocked flat and doesn't move.
Have to agree on the BLR. Not the mystique of the old lever guns, but bolt gun accuracy, light and handy, 20-inch and 22-inch models. A .325 WSM would hunt almost everything, everywhere, from the biggest bear or boar up close, to deer, elk, or sheep at 300+ yards. And the TD fits in luggage or a backpack.
I don't understand all the different velocity, energy, and other rules in Scotland, Ireland, England, and Wales, so I often offer my experience, which is useless to many of these hunters.
No doubt it is a wonderful rifle. The smooth rack and pinion with the dual locking lugs at the rear is very strong. The Model 71 is basically the same action, using a high pressure cartridge, the .348 Winchester. A friend has a restored Winchester 1886 in .45-70, but only shoots soft loads in it. I have a M-71 Deluxe, and those who think they need 3,000 fps to produce "hydrostatic shock", just need to see what a 200-gr bullet with 65 grains of H-4831 will do - everything is knocked flat and doesn't move.
Have to agree on the BLR. Not the mystique of the old lever guns, but bolt gun accuracy, light and handy, 20-inch and 22-inch models. A .325 WSM would hunt almost everything, everywhere, from the biggest bear or boar up close, to deer, elk, or sheep at 300+ yards. And the TD fits in luggage or a backpack.
I don't understand all the different velocity, energy, and other rules in Scotland, Ireland, England, and Wales, so I often offer my experience, which is useless to many of these hunters.
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My 1886 is the Extra Light Rifle w/22" barrel. With the heavier .45 cal barrel, the reduced length of the barrel and tubular magazine make for an exceptionally handy rifle considering the cartridge.
I've always wanted a 71, and I'm not opposed to reloading, but my Extra Light in .45-70 does everything I want and is easier to load for (plus, I prefer straight stock levers). Still, 71/.348 is kind of the pinnacle of lever action design. Perfect all-round rifle for Canada/Alaska, no doubt. That is, of course, if you are not the type to take 400+ yard shots at living game.
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In England it a minimum of .220 calibre and over 1000 ft/lbs with a minimum weight of 50 grain for muntjac and Chinese water deer. the larger deer, roe, sika, fallow and reds requirements are larger than a .243 and over 1700 ft/lbs energy.
In Scotlands its .243 and above calibre wise a minimum of 100 grain bullet and a minimum velocity of 2,450 fps
I for one value your posts about calibre you hunt with and what you hunt for, even if it is a bit harder to get round all the rules and laws over here about what can and cant be used and whether your police force will allow you to have what you want.
One day ill be able to hunt with my .45-70 over here
Atb Matt
One day ill be able to hunt with my .45-70 over here
Atb Matt
The Model 71 is a solid 200 yard big game rifle, but really it is super woods rifle, perfect for elk, moose and bear. I have never heard of a scope on one, much less seen one, and hope I never do.
I am into stalking close, and don't intend to take 300 yard shots, but pointing out that the BLR has the chamberings, like 7mm Rem Mag, .30-06, .300 magnums and .325 WSM, which can move heavy, high-BC bullets very accurately, making it more of a long-range rifle than people tend to think of lever actions. The .325 WSM can be loaded from .30-30 ( 170-gr at 2400 fps) to 200-gr with BC of .500 at 2,900 fps.
Back to this thread's question, I would like to know more about any power requirements which block the .45-70, .30-30, or .444 for red deer. I see that some have answered that while I was writing the previous sentence.
I am into stalking close, and don't intend to take 300 yard shots, but pointing out that the BLR has the chamberings, like 7mm Rem Mag, .30-06, .300 magnums and .325 WSM, which can move heavy, high-BC bullets very accurately, making it more of a long-range rifle than people tend to think of lever actions. The .325 WSM can be loaded from .30-30 ( 170-gr at 2400 fps) to 200-gr with BC of .500 at 2,900 fps.
Back to this thread's question, I would like to know more about any power requirements which block the .45-70, .30-30, or .444 for red deer. I see that some have answered that while I was writing the previous sentence.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but these "minimum requirements" that exist in the UK seem to be arbitrary, and dreamt up by ignorant bureaucrats.
This seems to be most obvious when certain cartridges, such as the .45-70, are barred because they do no exceed the minimum velocity.
I can personally guarantee that anybody who sees the close-medium range performance of the a 405 grain .45 caliber hard cast plugging away at 1800 fps will be converted. I love my 6.5s & .338s, but nothing beats the .45-70 in a lever for a timber rifle except for maybe a tailored double. Here in Northern and Western Canada, I still feel better with 4 + 1.
Southern, many places I hunt are a mixture of clear cuts, forest, prairie and cutlines. Most shots are under 100 yards regardless, but there are occasions where a 150-250 yard shot is required as you only have one chance. I always opt to stalk, but sometimes when you are rubbing shoulders with the season close and/or your time is limited, you just want to put that venison in the freezer. The BLR would be perfect for this type of terrain as it really is the best of both worlds.
Regards!
You ain't wrong!
theshootist
Well-Known Member
Jim,
Mine is a marlin sbl too. I've been using reloader 7. I'll be coming up with some lower velocity loads and may even try something like trailboss for plinking.
First rifle I've bought just for fun and it is a lot of fun. It will be fantastic on driven boar too I expect.
Thanks for all the advice
I'm leaning towards the 30/30 as more practical choice,
was thinking 336 in stainless,
Are the post 2007 remmys any worse than the older Marlins?
my mates got a remmy 700, and I have no love for it whatsoever, I Can't see what people spend so much customising them.
I'd buy an older blued marlin if their of better quality.
I'm leaning towards the 30/30 as more practical choice,
was thinking 336 in stainless,
Are the post 2007 remmys any worse than the older Marlins?
my mates got a remmy 700, and I have no love for it whatsoever, I Can't see what people spend so much customising them.
I'd buy an older blued marlin if their of better quality.
mereside
Well-Known Member
looking on gun star there is a nice 30-30
Winchester Model 94 .30 -30win Rifles For Sale in Surrey - GS50245FA :: GunStar
and also a .444 for sale I wish you well in your search I could only find the .444 in marlin but the Winchester looks tidy and a 1970 model. I really like my Winchester,atb wayne
Winchester Model 94 .30 -30win Rifles For Sale in Surrey - GS50245FA :: GunStar
and also a .444 for sale I wish you well in your search I could only find the .444 in marlin but the Winchester looks tidy and a 1970 model. I really like my Winchester,atb wayne
336 is a fine option, but I am partial to the M94 (and pretty much all Winchesters).
.30-30 is an excellent cartridge and would be an excellent choice for your deer species. I don't scope my lever guns, but you could if you wanted and the rifle would be as good as anything else for longer shots.
FWIW, the Winchester Model 94 chambered in the .30-30 is synonymous with "deer rifle" in North America like the Mannlicher 1903 in 6.5x54 or the M98 Sporter in 7x57mm in Europe--love all three in their respective platforms!
Lastly, in the 1990s some game ranchers convinced the government it would be a good idea to import wild boar from Russia and, surprise surprise, a few escaped and now we have pockets of Eurasian boar across the western provinces. I shot one about 14 years in northern Alberta with a .30-30 170gr silver tip--did a fine job so doubt count it out for your wild boar species.
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Near my house is a huge swamp in a river bottom, full of hogs. The river goes back up into the mountains, 160 miles north, where a railroad baron stocked 19,000 acres with boar from Bavaria, Scottish red deer, Sika, Fallow, Mouflon Sheep. The boar tore out the fence in the late 1890s and they have made their way this far.
Even the largest ones ( 400 to 450 lbs ), fall right over when hit with a .30-30. I use that when following dogs and in a hurry through brush, and the larger .444 when just stalking in thick woods.
Even the largest ones ( 400 to 450 lbs ), fall right over when hit with a .30-30. I use that when following dogs and in a hurry through brush, and the larger .444 when just stalking in thick woods.
Ive tried a few rounds or 405 cast lead bullets with trail boss and it was good fun to shoot
Atb Matt
MARCBO
Well-Known Member
I/ve owned a couple of the Marlins in 45-70 and find them to be too light. If I were to get another I would find an older action without the safety and then rebarrel it with a larger diameter round barrel and fit it with a longer magazine tube. Had a couple of Brownings too but there is always someone willing to pay me much more than I think they are worth so I usually don't own them long.
SS
SS
The older Marlins, the 1893, and 1895, did have longer barrels, like 25 inches, and it makes a difference. My .444 has a 24-inch barrel, and I can tell the difference between it and a 22 incher. The modern Cowboy with longer barrel in .45-70 really feels right to me.
Just get your .45-70 in an 1885 single shot with a 28 inch tapered octagon barrel and be done with it.
Winchester makes various old models each year, and runs SHOT Show specials.
SHOT Show Specials -- Winchester Repeating Arms
1886 rifle for 2015 in .45-70
Model 1886 Deluxe Case Hardened, -- Winchester Repeating Arms -- Product Model
Just get your .45-70 in an 1885 single shot with a 28 inch tapered octagon barrel and be done with it.
Winchester makes various old models each year, and runs SHOT Show specials.
SHOT Show Specials -- Winchester Repeating Arms
1886 rifle for 2015 in .45-70
Model 1886 Deluxe Case Hardened, -- Winchester Repeating Arms -- Product Model
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alberta boy
Well-Known Member
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