.243 cal and lead ban wording

[timbrayford]

What are they plated with? Copper as some .22 rimfire or is it something else?

Nickel or copper, its usually the premium brands, but the whole point is the public authorities do not appear to have ever enquired into this and apparently have no interest in so doing. Surely if you are going to evidenced based legislation it needs to be based on evidence and not on extremist political agendas?

 

[BryanDC]

Nickel or copper, its usually the premium brands, but the whole point is the public authorities do not appear to have ever enquired into this and apparently have no interest in so doing. Surely if you are going to evidenced based legislation it needs to be based on evidence and not on extremist political agendas?

It's a good point. Not so worried about copper but nickel is not nice. Maybe they need to ban coated shot.

 

[timbrayford]

It's a good point. Not so worried about copper but nickel is not nice. Maybe they need to ban coated shot.

To be frank I think the HSE only examined the subject at a superficial level and were primarily interested in supporting their own preconceived opinions. I believe that there was some comment on this in the shooting press at the time.

 

[shakey jake]

Not too mention that it’s 100 grn bullets in England / wales for Roe Red Fallow Sika anything less is not legal.
We can only hope common sense prevail and follow Scotland in reducing it to 80 grn but knowing are lot that’s going to be very unlikely.

Are you sure?

 

[timbrayford]

It's a good point. Not so worried about copper but nickel is not nice. Maybe they need to ban coated shot.

Out goes the stainless steel cutlery!

 

[Merlyn]

Not too mention that it’s 100 grn bullets in England / wales for Roe Red Fallow Sika anything less is not legal.
We can only hope common sense prevail and follow Scotland in reducing it to 80 grn but knowing are lot that’s going to be very unlikely.

Where did you read this, Stevie/P? Cant say that I have come across it anywhere.

 

[Stevie/P]

Where did you read this, Stevie/P? Cant say that I have come across it anywhere.

What part of my post you referring too

 

[Tim.243]

Actually you've touched on an issue that I raised with the HSE.
I asked if plated shotgun shot was causing toxicity issues, it transpired that the matter has never been studied and for whatever reason they failed to respond to my enquiry, neither did it feature in their deliberations.
Surely if you are going to make a lawful activity unlawful due diligence needs to be shown by the public bodies responsible?

Winchester made a 40gm 2 3/4 copper plated lead shot cartridge.

 

[25 Sharps]

Not too mention that it’s 100 grn bullets in England / wales for Roe Red Fallow Sika anything less is not legal.
We can only hope common sense prevail and follow Scotland in reducing it to 80 grn but knowing are lot that’s going to be very unlikely.

Think you need a little freshen up on your deer legislation.

 

[Stevie/P]

Think you need a little freshen up on your deer legislation.

Is it not minimum 100 grn bullet for roe red sika fallow in England/ wales

 

[25 Sharps]

Is it not minimum 100 grn bullet for roe red sika fallow in England/ wales

No, 50 gr for munties and CWD, no minimum weight, just calibre for the others

 

[Stevie/P]

No, 50 gr for munties and CWD, no minimum weight, just calibre for the others

Fair enough I hadn’t realised that had changed so yes I need to update my understanding of deer legislation.
Thanks

 

[25 Sharps]

Fair enough I hadn’t realised that had changed so yes I need to update my understanding of deer legislation.
Thanks

That hasn’t changed…….

The 100 gr thing applied in Scotland for anything bigger than roe, though it’s now 80 gr to allow .243 to be used with lead free ammo.

 

[BryanDC]

Out goes the stainless steel cutlery!

copper knives sound good. They'll get a lovely green colour in the dishwasher.

 

[Twodogs]

The wording in the draft legislation states that calibres less than 6.17mm are not prohibited from use with lead projectiles for live quarry shooting or the zeroing of such rifles

It defines “calibre” as the diameter of the bore and the diameter of the bullet.

The 243 Winchester calibre uses a bullet of 6.2mm diameter.

For those not very good at numbers 6.2mm is bigger than 6.17mm.

The draft legislation is here. It is an amendment to the existing REACH regulations already in force.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/686ce203a08d3a3ca3b6787d/Draft_amendment_for_lead_in_ammunition_restriction.pdf

In a moment of boredom. (Made sense to me at time of writing).

SAAMI states that for .243 Winchester
Bullet .243 - 0.003 (6.17 - 0.08)
Barrel bore diameter .237 (6.02)
Groove diameter .243 (6.17)

The document defines ‘calibre’ as the diameter of the bore and the diameter of the bullet.
For .243 Winchester at SAAMI standards the bore diameter 6.02, which is less than 6.17, which means that it is classified as a small calibre and lead can be used.
The bullet diameter at SAAMI standards is 6.17 - 0.08, so if manufactured to max tolerance it would be caught in the large calibre however if manufactured within the -0.08 tolerance it would be classified as a small calibre as it is less than 6.17. When I’ve measured 6mm bullets they have generally come in at 6.15.
The ‘and’ in the calibre description is important. Does the ‘and’ mean that the description applies to both the bore and the bullet and have to be taken together or it won’t meet the calibre description or does it mean that the same criteria apply to both with no connection in which case ‘calibre’ has two differing interpretations. The sort of thing barristers make lots of money arguing.

Basically the documents are poorly thought out and worded, no wonder there is so much confusion.

 

[timbrayford]

copper knives sound good. They'll get a lovely green colour in the dishwasher.

In a moment of boredom. (Made sense to me at time of writing).

SAAMI states that for .243 Winchester
Bullet .243 - 0.003 (6.17 - 0.08)
Barrel bore diameter .237 (6.02)
Groove diameter .243 (6.17)

The document defines ‘calibre’ as the diameter of the bore and the diameter of the bullet.
For .243 Winchester at SAAMI standards the bore diameter 6.02, which is less than 6.17, which means that it is classified as a small calibre and lead can be used.
The bullet diameter at SAAMI standards is 6.17 - 0.08, so if manufactured to max tolerance it would be caught in the large calibre however if manufactured within the -0.08 tolerance it would be classified as a small calibre as it is less than 6.17. When I’ve measured 6mm bullets they have generally come in at 6.15.
The ‘and’ in the calibre description is important. Does the ‘and’ mean that the description applies to both the bore and the bullet and have to be taken together or it won’t meet the calibre description or does it mean that the same criteria apply to both with no connection in which case ‘calibre’ has two differing interpretations. The sort of thing barristers make lots of money arguing.

Basically the documents are poorly thought out and worded, no wonder there is so much confusion.

Where is the science that says 6 mm is fine, 6.15 mm is terrible?

 

[Heym SR20]

In a moment of boredom. (Made sense to me at time of writing).

SAAMI states that for .243 Winchester
Bullet .243 - 0.003 (6.17 - 0.08)
Barrel bore diameter .237 (6.02)
Groove diameter .243 (6.17)

The document defines ‘calibre’ as the diameter of the bore and the diameter of the bullet.
For .243 Winchester at SAAMI standards the bore diameter 6.02, which is less than 6.17, which means that it is classified as a small calibre and lead can be used.
The bullet diameter at SAAMI standards is 6.17 - 0.08, so if manufactured to max tolerance it would be caught in the large calibre however if manufactured within the -0.08 tolerance it would be classified as a small calibre as it is less than 6.17. When I’ve measured 6mm bullets they have generally come in at 6.15.
The ‘and’ in the calibre description is important. Does the ‘and’ mean that the description applies to both the bore and the bullet and have to be taken together or it won’t meet the calibre description or does it mean that the same criteria apply to both with no connection in which case ‘calibre’ has two differing interpretations. The sort of thing barristers make lots of money arguing.

Basically the documents are poorly thought out and worded, no wonder there is so much confusion.

Note that the documents are “Draft”.

They will need to be debated in parliament and thoroughly cross referenced to other legislation.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they used the .240 definition as already included in the Deer Acts etc.

Indeed I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the powers that be put a complete ban on use for any live quarry, especially as many carcasses of vermin are left in the field for predators to take care of.

As the drafting is written you can go out, shoot 100 rabbits with rapidly expanding 22 varmint bullets leaving lots of lead in the carcasses and leave these for all the buzzards, red kites, eagles etc to feed on.

This doesn’t help anybody, least of all the shooting community as Packham et al. will still say that shooting is poisoning wildlife with lead.

 

[Twodogs]

And the way things are going may never see the light of legislation, hopefully.

@timbrayford why let science get in the way of anything governmental?

 

[timbrayford]

And the way things are going may never see the light of legislation, hopefully.

@timbrayford why let science get in the way of anything governmental?

Absolutely, the whole thing is an attack on shooting sports dressed up as an environment issue , otherwise there would be no exemptions for the military and police.

 

[Smellydog]

There is zero milage in worrying what pacham and his chums are going to say.

They have plenty other stuff lined up in their sights already, automatically.

Trying to get ahead of them by adding more legislation is daft. That is like someone cheating an age related illness inducing death before diagnosis by jumping off a cliff with no parachute in their 30's!

I was told years ago the legislation will exempt all from 243 and under.
Knowing how British politics works, predetermined outcomes before consultation etc I'm holding onto what I was told.