6.5 Creedmoor Copper Ammunition

[NickJ]

Agreed. Re the smashed shoulder, one day the Game dealers will realise that with a copper bullet there is very little actual wastage of meat. There is not the fragmentation and huge number of microscopic particles of lead that you get with a lead bullet. Instead you have a hole and perhaps some bone fragments. The vast majority of the shoulder meat can still be recovered and diced up / go through the mincer.

Equally the remaining bits can just go to normal waste and will not be viewed as contaminated waste with high cost of associated disposal.

I suspect unicorns and flying pigs may be on the quarry list before this happens, but one day the market will sort itself out.

A friend who shoots a lot of deer was telling me that his major game dealer is now only taking non lead shot deer. They xray all carcasses and operate one strike and out policy. Ie if you should send in a lead shot carcass you get one chance. Next time they will cease dealing with you.

With apologies to the OP for going down a rabbit hole but interesting on the NL ammo point, I asked two dealers in Scotland what % NL shot carcasses they get and one said less than 15% and the other less than 10%. Events I've helped run in England are revealing stalkers using NL is now over 85%, the dicotomy.

It might be a range thing (open hill being mainly in Scotland obviously) or perhaps the profile of the guys attending said events/courses

 

[Scipio]

Sensible thoughts as usual expressed on this issue and of the importance of adapting ones shot placement to the type of bullet (and shot distance and animal) one is shooting at.'

Interestingly in this regard, i was just down at my local range to do some obligatorical hunting target rifle practice, and though Denmark has been completely non lead for all hunting intended shot gun and center fire ammunition , (i think, ) since 2023, the taught standard practice from the hunting shooting instructors is for your old school meat saver heart lung shot. And this is also where the bullseye on the roe imaged target posters are.

 

[Scipio]

The Barnes TTSX 100 gr work well for me so have stuck with them. Good mushroom and weight retention from any ive found.

Hello mate, and thanks for the input May i ask how big an animal you'd be comfortable using the 100 grns for, inside 200 meters, before considering stepping up to the 120s?
Also, why isnt 110s more readily available for the 6.5s, - it would seem to strike a sweetspot between speed, yet also mass and sd for pretty much most european game, no?

 

[RCS Deer Management]

. Re the smashed shoulder, one day the Game dealers will realise that with a copper bullet there is very little actual wastage of meat.

I’m sorry heym, that just isn’t remotely true. I skin hundreds of deer a year that are shot with monolithic ammunition (barnes and Hornady cx). A shoulder hit with a monolithic bullet is a write off 9/10 times on sika/fallow size animals and down. I have noticed very little difference in bruising between non lead and cup and core bullets even though the hole is normally smaller with a monolithic bullet. In the skin monolithic shot carcasses look tidy as they have a smallish exit hole, but get the skin off and the bruising is normally drastic. I’m not against lead free ammo but I think it’s important that we don’t bend the truth.

 

[Heym SR20]

I’m sorry heym, that just isn’t remotely true. I skin hundreds of deer a year that are shot with monolithic ammunition (barnes and Hornady cx). A shoulder hit with a monolithic bullet is a write off 9/10 times on sika/fallow size animals and down. I have noticed very little difference in bruising between non lead and cup and core bullets even though the hole is normally smaller with a monolithic bullet. In the skin monolithic shot carcasses look tidy as they have a smallish exit hole, but get the skin off and the bruising is normally drastic. I’m not against lead free ammo but I think it’s important that we don’t bend the truth.

Not my experience with Fox and RWS HIT Bullets in both Roe and Red. Not a lot of bruising with my 7mm bullet with MV of aprrox 2800 fps. I have noticed quite a bit more bruising with an 80gn 243 Fox at approx 3200 fps MV.

What cartridge and velocities are you using?

 

[RCS Deer Management]

A lot with 127gr barnes at 2700fps , but pretty much every other combo out there too as I take a lot of clients all with their own setups. Don’t worry, I understand the relationship between velocity and bruising.

 

[Scipio]

A lot with 127gr barnes at 2700fps , but pretty much every other combo out there too as I take a lot of clients all with their own setups. Don’t worry, I understand the relationship between velocity and bruising.

Well, i def sounds like your are in a good position to harvest a good amount of emperical evidence on the matter.
Given that you are exposed to so many different set ups, what is your impression on around what impact velocity bruising starts first getting noticeable and where it goes into downright bad, on fallow and down? Thank you .-)

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Well, i def sounds like your are in a good position to harvest a good amount of emperical evidence on the matter.
Given that you are exposed to so many different set ups, what is your impression on around what impact velocity bruising starts first getting noticeable and where it goes into downright bad, on fallow and down? Thank you .-)

I wouldn’t worry about the bruising, it’s no worse than with lead, I was just pointing out that in my experience people who say you can pin a deer through the shoulders with a monolithic and not wreck the shoulders are mislead. Even with a fairly small hole through the shoulders enough blood gets blown into the wound to write off the shoulder. In choosing a bullet non fragmenting monolithics (barnes, cx, gmx, fox ect) all perform best at over 2200fps. I would play with a few different bullets in a ballistic calculator at the expected muzzle velocity and see which bullet gets you the furthest before dropping down below 2200fps. For me in the creedmoor i tried this with several of the more commonly available bullets and the barnes 127gr lrx came out on top (due to having a reasonable bc for a monolithic bullet)

 

[dazrc]

Hello mate, and thanks for the input May i ask how big an animal you'd be comfortable using the 100 grns for, inside 200 meters, before considering stepping up to the 120s?
Also, why isnt 110s more readily available for the 6.5s, - it would seem to strike a sweetspot between speed, yet also mass and sd for pretty much most european game, no?

I’ve taken large fallow Bucks with the 100gr ttsx. So larder weight would easy be up to 80/90kg I would use them on any UK species.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Bruising comes from velocity and/or frangibility

Two sika hinds shot with 25-06 Federal lead doing less than 2900fps MV
Shocking bruising
Pic one and two

Run a copper (or any type) at 3k+ and you will get bruising
Some copper require that velocity to transmit shock into animal/CNS and to work effectively
Other designs do not.
Much of the terminal effect is dependent on matching terminal velocity to the density or resistance presented by the target.
Same as a 224 VMax, drive it at a TV of 3k into a muddy red stag and expect a splash wound
Drive a 165gr copper with a TV of 2500 and expect it to pencil through all but the toughest targets

Run an 143gr ELDX with a TV of 2900 on light game and expect lots of damage
Run them in 200gr form and the same TV and the carcase damage is much better


A sensible terminal velocity with a non lead with a large meplat/hollow point will leave you a carcase you can eat right up to the hole.
3rd pic

You need to think of design and terminal velocity rather than material when it comes to non lead rifle bullets.

One non lead will be mustard on roe but shite on red…..as are some lead

The last photo is where I tell all clients to shoot Sika regardless of bullet type/construction

Anyone who hasnt had an anomaly with either lead or copper probably hasn’t shot enough to be drawing from an appropriate data set to be relevant.

In answer to the OP
120gr CX or TRGX will do the job admirably if the TV is sensible
Start with a low MV (short barrel, small cartridge) or run them out to 350m and expect poor results

As to the variance in Lead vs Non Lead in game dealers
Some dont ask. So how would they know
Highland Game who take all of FLS carcasses which likely make up the major proportion of their intake are solely Non Lead from FLS

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Bruising comes from velocity and/or frangibility

Two sika hinds shot with 25-06 Federal lead doing less than 2900fps MV
Shocking bruising
Pic one and two

Run a copper (or any type) at 3k+ and you will get bruising
Some copper require that velocity to transmit shock into animal/CNS and to work effectively
Other designs do not.
Much of the terminal effect is dependent on matching terminal velocity to the density or resistance presented by the target.
Same as a 224 VMax, drive it at a TV of 3k into a muddy red stag and expect a splash wound
Drive a 165gr copper with a TV of 2500 and expect it to pencil through all but the toughest targets

Run an 143gr ELDX with a TV of 2900 on light game and expect lots of damage
Run them in 200gr form and the same TV and the carcase damage is much better


A sensible terminal velocity with a non lead with a large meplat/hollow point will leave you a carcase you can eat right up to the hole.
3rd pic

You need to think of design and terminal velocity rather than material when it comes to non lead rifle bullets.

One non lead will be mustard on roe but shite on red…..as are some lead

The last photo is where I tell all clients to shoot Sika regardless of bullet type/construction

Anyone who hasnt had an anomaly with either lead or copper probably hasn’t shot enough to be drawing from an appropriate data set to be relevant.

In answer to the OP
120gr CX or TRGX will do the job admirably if the TV is sensible
Start with a low MV (short barrel, small cartridge) or run them out to 350m and expect poor results

As to the variance in Lead vs Non Lead in game dealers
Some dont ask. So how would they know
Highland Game who take all of FLS carcasses which likely make up the major proportion of their intake are solely Non Lead from FLS

In that picture ed, the damage would be worse if that same bullet was put through the shoulder due to increased resistance and more shards of bone, and even in that picture it’s a considerable size in relation to the shoulder. Got any pictures of shots through the shoulders where the shoulders are still usable? People say that copper bullets work best when put through the shoulders (true) but that it doesn’t matter as you can eat up to the hole, implying that the shoulders are still in good condition. I stand by that in all the deer Iv seen pinned through the shoulders with pretty much every monolithic available that the shoulders are only fit for the bin afterwards.

 

[Scipio]

Thanks for input guys, much appreciated. - @Edinburgh Rifles so you're almost advocating a hilar shot for your clients, but with the counciled cross hairs set maybe a couple of inches higher, no ?
Are those few extra inches in height because it provides better margins for being a bit off, especially to the left and down, or is it just because it is easier to explain to clients that way, and still provide good results?

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Thanks for input guys, much appreciated. - @Edinburgh Rifles so you're almost advocating a hilar shot for your clients, but with the counciled cross hairs set maybe a couple of inches higher, no ?
Are those few extra inches in height because it provides better margins for being a bit off, especially to the left and down, or is it just because it is easier to explain to clients that way, and still provide good results?

Both!!
The guts are closer to the front lower down!!
If you pull it too far back it is spined, bit still down.
Too far forward, low neck, down.
Hit lower and its a solid chest

 

[Scipio]

Both!!
The guts are closer to the front lower down!!
If you pull it too far back it is spined, bit still down.
Too far forward, low neck, down.
Hit lower and its a solid chest

Thanks for responding Ed .-) And yep, that makes sense!

 

[Mike1979]

Bruising comes from velocity and/or frangibility

Two sika hinds shot with 25-06 Federal lead doing less than 2900fps MV
Shocking bruising
Pic one and two

Run a copper (or any type) at 3k+ and you will get bruising
Some copper require that velocity to transmit shock into animal/CNS and to work effectively
Other designs do not.
Much of the terminal effect is dependent on matching terminal velocity to the density or resistance presented by the target.
Same as a 224 VMax, drive it at a TV of 3k into a muddy red stag and expect a splash wound
Drive a 165gr copper with a TV of 2500 and expect it to pencil through all but the toughest targets

Run an 143gr ELDX with a TV of 2900 on light game and expect lots of damage
Run them in 200gr form and the same TV and the carcase damage is much better


A sensible terminal velocity with a non lead with a large meplat/hollow point will leave you a carcase you can eat right up to the hole.
3rd pic

You need to think of design and terminal velocity rather than material when it comes to non lead rifle bullets.

One non lead will be mustard on roe but shite on red…..as are some lead

The last photo is where I tell all clients to shoot Sika regardless of bullet type/construction

Anyone who hasnt had an anomaly with either lead or copper probably hasn’t shot enough to be drawing from an appropriate data set to be relevant.

In answer to the OP
120gr CX or TRGX will do the job admirably if the TV is sensible
Start with a low MV (short barrel, small cartridge) or run them out to 350m and expect poor results

As to the variance in Lead vs Non Lead in game dealers
Some dont ask. So how would they know
Highland Game who take all of FLS carcasses which likely make up the major proportion of their intake are solely Non Lead from FLS

Daft question (perhaps) but is photo 4 a hybrid as its a monster of an animal

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Daft question (perhaps) but is photo 4 a hybrid as its a monster of an animal

Google images
Some big manchurian/formosan thing I suspect

 

[75]

Bruising comes from velocity and/or frangibility

And how long the carcass is left before gralloch. IMHO!

If anything lies on its side with a chest full of blood for any period then that blood seeps in between fascias and bruising is much worse.

 

[Scipio]

In that picture ed, the damage would be worse if that same bullet was put through the shoulder due to increased resistance and more shards of bone, and even in that picture it’s a considerable size in relation to the shoulder. Got any pictures of shots through the shoulders where the shoulders are still usable? People say that copper bullets work best when put through the shoulders (true) but that it doesn’t matter as you can eat up to the hole, implying that the shoulders are still in good condition. I stand by that in all the deer Iv seen pinned through the shoulders with pretty much every monolithic available that the shoulders are only fit for the bin afterwards.

Good point, and probably alone the shards of bone , being shattered at a pretty high speed, will do it's fair bit of damage imagine.
I do wonder if there isnt some sort of corelation to this sort of carcass damage with the quicker TV of the bullet, the larger the surface area it impacts with and the lesser SD it has, (meaning it might penetrate more by brute force, than a more effeciently penetrating bullet). Also in the case of non fragmenting lead free bullets.

As an extension of this, i wonder just how low TV really needs to be to largely avoid this sort of damage, if it is at all possible. Maybe the muskets of old, shooting a large round ball at low velocity would more break bone than shatter them, and thus limit carcass damage when shoulder shots are had?

But as for the Creedmoor coppers, i guess that unless one goes for a rather low bullet weight and hot load, that the MV and TV should be non excessive, limiting the carcass damage somewhat, even if it is perhaps not fully avoidable.

 

[NickJ]

Bruising comes from velocity and/or frangibility

Two sika hinds shot with 25-06 Federal lead doing less than 2900fps MV
Shocking bruising
Pic one and two

Run a copper (or any type) at 3k+ and you will get bruising
Some copper require that velocity to transmit shock into animal/CNS and to work effectively
Other designs do not.
Much of the terminal effect is dependent on matching terminal velocity to the density or resistance presented by the target.
Same as a 224 VMax, drive it at a TV of 3k into a muddy red stag and expect a splash wound
Drive a 165gr copper with a TV of 2500 and expect it to pencil through all but the toughest targets

Run an 143gr ELDX with a TV of 2900 on light game and expect lots of damage
Run them in 200gr form and the same TV and the carcase damage is much better


A sensible terminal velocity with a non lead with a large meplat/hollow point will leave you a carcase you can eat right up to the hole.
3rd pic

You need to think of design and terminal velocity rather than material when it comes to non lead rifle bullets.

One non lead will be mustard on roe but shite on red…..as are some lead

The last photo is where I tell all clients to shoot Sika regardless of bullet type/construction

Anyone who hasnt had an anomaly with either lead or copper probably hasn’t shot enough to be drawing from an appropriate data set to be relevant.

In answer to the OP
120gr CX or TRGX will do the job admirably if the TV is sensible
Start with a low MV (short barrel, small cartridge) or run them out to 350m and expect poor results

As to the variance in Lead vs Non Lead in game dealers
Some dont ask. So how would they know
Highland Game who take all of FLS carcasses which likely make up the major proportion of their intake are solely Non Lead from FLS

I’d agree that many people expect one bullet to be optimal for a roe at 60m and a red at 300

Those two dealers know because they asked their suppliers, they said however that as none of their clients have asked for NL shot deer they haven’t insisted on it but one of them likes that fact that we mark the deer as NL shot on the tags in case anyone does.

The point was the potential difference in NL take up between England and Scotland, was just thinking aloud really

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Bruising comes from velocity and/or frangibility

Two sika hinds shot with 25-06 Federal lead doing less than 2900fps MV
Shocking bruising
Pic one and two

Run a copper (or any type) at 3k+ and you will get bruising
Some copper require that velocity to transmit shock into animal/CNS and to work effectively
Other designs do not.
Much of the terminal effect is dependent on matching terminal velocity to the density or resistance presented by the target.
Same as a 224 VMax, drive it at a TV of 3k into a muddy red stag and expect a splash wound
Drive a 165gr copper with a TV of 2500 and expect it to pencil through all but the toughest targets

Run an 143gr ELDX with a TV of 2900 on light game and expect lots of damage
Run them in 200gr form and the same TV and the carcase damage is much better


A sensible terminal velocity with a non lead with a large meplat/hollow point will leave you a carcase you can eat right up to the hole.
3rd pic

You need to think of design and terminal velocity rather than material when it comes to non lead rifle bullets.

One non lead will be mustard on roe but shite on red…..as are some lead

The last photo is where I tell all clients to shoot Sika regardless of bullet type/construction

Anyone who hasnt had an anomaly with either lead or copper probably hasn’t shot enough to be drawing from an appropriate data set to be relevant.

In answer to the OP
120gr CX or TRGX will do the job admirably if the TV is sensible
Start with a low MV (short barrel, small cartridge) or run them out to 350m and expect poor results

As to the variance in Lead vs Non Lead in game dealers
Some dont ask. So how would they know
Highland Game who take all of FLS carcasses which likely make up the major proportion of their intake are solely Non Lead from FLS

Ed, On that Sika stag photo, where the white cross hair is would probably miss bone but go through, so called 'shoulder' muscle. I totally get your points if client were to be off with the shot but would you ideally shoot to 'miss' the bone - as per my attachment (purple spot), or would you prefer it forward to catch the right angle where the scapula meets the upper arm?

I often think that when people are referring to the shoulder, some are talking muscle and some are talking bone.