6.5 or what

[Foxyboy43]

Hmmmm! 6.5x55 Swede and 6.5x55 SE/SKAN have only one thing in common as far as I can see and that is the projectiles they both fire. The former is the century old military version and the latter is the modern sporting version of the same cartridge - if in doubt check Viht's reloading guide 2020 which takes pains to explain the difference - especially in pressures. To confuse matters of course, the dreaded US litigation spectre comes in so loads for both versions inevitably err on the soft side.
Re only hitting your aim point at one distance this is open to confusion - the variable is what your aim point actually is - is it a 1/2" target at a known distance or lets say a 6" Red deer heart/lung shot at an estimated distance - one has to be pretty much dead on for the known range and the other can be perfectly on target for anywhere for example and dependent on bullet/load etc. between 100 and maybe 175yds - hence the usual 1" high at 100 setting. Very much horses for particular courses methinks .

 

[ejg]

Well, just have another look at the data, skan is the same as CIP in pressure otherwise skan would need a separate CIP approval. Limited at 3800bar which is very low by modern standards.
edi

 

[Border]

Because of Norway's civilian marksman program (DFS) the 6.5x55 will prosper for many years yet. It has also made more of a comeback as a hunting round in the last few years, the top 3 being 30-06, 6.5x55 and 308W. 6.5 Creedmoor is on the scene here but the only real advantage being a short action cartridge. Otherwise cost and availability the older cartridge wins hands down.

 

[Foxyboy43]

Well, just have another look at the data, skan is the same as CIP in pressure otherwise skan would need a separate CIP approval. Limited at 3800bar which is very low by modern standards.
edi

 

[Foxyboy43]

Pressure data aside and cognisant of powder manufacturers weather eye on the litigious US market, I think the 2020 viht reloading guide for 6.5x55SE/SKAN is good enough for me - "WARNING: This reloading data is intended to use at modern rifles in good condition such as Sauer, Sako or Blaser chambered to 6,5 x 55 SKAN or 6,5 x 55 SE. WARNING: DO NOT USE with Krag-Jörgensen, Mauser M1896 or similar rifles. This data has max loads set at pressure of 380 MPa". Taking a 120g Scenar as an example the max loads for SE/SKAN are c.10% higher than the "Swede" for the same bullet. Go to 139g and there is still a noticeable difference in favour of the modern 6.5. The point is don't use SE/SKAN Data for reloading what is fondly historically known as the "Swede".

 

[Ade8mm]

A bit of gentle banter about calibres makes quite a refreshing change to squabbles about covid and lock-ins

 

[Foxyboy43]

Yep and always good to hear other views and more information. Respect - always!

 

[ejg]

Pressure data aside and cognisant of powder manufacturers weather eye on the litigious US market, I think the 2020 viht reloading guide for 6.5x55SE/SKAN is good enough for me - "WARNING: This reloading data is intended to use at modern rifles in good condition such as Sauer, Sako or Blaser chambered to 6,5 x 55 SKAN or 6,5 x 55 SE. WARNING: DO NOT USE with Krag-Jörgensen, Mauser M1896 or similar rifles. This data has max loads set at pressure of 380 MPa". Taking a 120g Scenar as an example the max loads for SE/SKAN are c.10% higher than the "Swede" for the same bullet. Go to 139g and there is still a noticeable difference in favour of the modern 6.5. The point is don't use SE/SKAN Data for reloading what is fondly historically known as the "Swede".

I don't agree that Skan data has higher pressure limits than CIP or standard European Data. If it would they would need to have it CIP approved. Even if I look at my old DEVA reloading book there is no mention of Skan anywhere and yet the max pressure is set at 3800bar.... since a very long time. Yes for the very early Mauser and Krag rifles one should reduce loads. The DEVA book suggests 15%.
Still the max official pressure for the 6.5x55 is 3800 bar. Low compared to the 4350 bar for the 6.5 CM.
I recon that they still shoot the old rifles in the Nordic countries and maybe use the Skan to show the difference? I don't know.
So at the end of the day in Europe all modern rifles only have one set of rules for the 6.5x55 and that is the CIP standards.
Overall all this talk about 6.5x55 loaded to higher or lower pressures and not even mentioning which pressures are meant, confusing people if they are on the right side is driving shooters towards the newer 6.5CM cartridge.

We have quite a few new rifles coming through our shop, since a few years I have not heard of a new 6.5x55 being bought. Most going for the 6.5CM or 308 instead and I think factory ammo availability is already better for the Creedmoor.
I recently bought a cheap second hand 6.5x55 seem to be quite a few on the shelves.

edi

 

[Foxyboy43]

Good to have your thoughts on this - if you can believe Wikipedia do check out their entry on "6.5x55 Swedish".

 

[ejg]

I did, CIP value 380MPA = 3800bar

6.5×55mm Swedish - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

also say's : "6.5 × 55 SKAN is the Scandinavian designation used by the Scandinavian shooting associations DFS, DGI and SvSF.[10] "
so not an international standard.

edi

 

[Heym SR20]

The 6.5 CM is designed specifically as a target cartridge and its standard spec is a fast twist barrel 1 in 8”. This to stabilise long skinny high BC bullets. By using less powder to achieve similar velocities it theoretically will give a longer barrel life than the 6.5x55

The 6.5x55 has a slightly slower twist at 1 turn in 8.6.

Looking at Sako’s website. Comparing the specs of the Finnlight, both the 6.5 CM and the 6.5x55 have a 1 in 8” twist. The 6.5cm has a S action the 55 a M action. With the same length barrel they weight the same.

For hunting there is probably bugger all difference.

For range use there is probably a bigger selection and availability of cheaper target type ammo for the 6.5 CM. And the CM as it is more efficient burns less powder for same velocity so will have a bit less recoil.

 

[User00033]

6.5x55 Swede and 6.5x55 SE/SKAN have only one thing in common as far as I can see and that is the projectiles they both fire. The former is the century old military version and the latter is the modern sporting version of the same cartridge

Nope.

The key thing here is the terminology used by the two standards organisations:

Generic names commonly used: 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser, 6.5x55 Swede, 6.5x55.
Other names less commonly used: 6.5x55 Krag, 6.5x55 Mauser. These two refer to the old military spec rifles.

Official names and pressures in use today:

SAAMI (North America): 6.5x55 Swedish, max pressure 51,000psi
CIP (Europe): 6.5x55 SE, max pressure 3800bar (55,114psi)

The Scandinavian shooting associations (as per @ejg above) updated the cartridge design slightly in 1990 and called in the 6.5x55 SKAN. This is their modern take on the original design, but is not an officially recognised international standard. Barrels chambered to the SKAN dimensions are marked as such. The SKAN absolutely is not the same as the 6.5x55 SE. In 2018, the Scandinavians banned the CIP 6.5x55 SE for use in competition to level the playing field and to make sure everyone had a safe, modern barrel. Somewhere from quite recently (last year or two), there is a very interesting and detailed magazine article about the history of the Swede and it's uptake in civilian sporting use (which is what I was referring to earlier), which explains all the differences very precisely. But I'm buggered if I can find it now. It's written by a Norwegian shooter IIRC. I am pretty sure I read it last year in England so maybe some of you fellas read it too.

My comment however referred to dialling in for deer which unlike bits of metal (which I also enjoy shooting) have a very annoying habit of not keeping still!

This is where the conversation gets predictably derailed by the typically ignorant anti "long range" judgments. Those of us that habitually shoot deer well beyond what you might be used to, don't particularly like these kind of throwaway indirect criticisms. As a population of the shooting fraternity, we put a huge amount of effort into what we do - out of necessity - and reject the tired old cliches from mostly older blokes with precisely zero experience of the matter concerned.

 

[Border]

The 6.5x55 Krag Jørgensen has a lower pressure level than the 3800 bar of the Swedish Mauser. 3300 bar is a figure that I have read with ammo loaded to 2800 bar commercially.
It is not recommended to shoot swedish mauser ammo in the Krag.

 

[Foxyboy43]

O dear, I didn't realise such sensitivities ran so deep amongst apparently "younger blokes"! Sorry.

 

[EDCM]

It’s a bang/shut case in favour of the 6mm Creedmoor, but believe me there’s enough thick/stubborn/argumentative types around on forums to make the exercise of proving it an exercise in purest futility. So the easier and far more satisfactory answer is: What I say is correct, what you think is irrelevant because I own both and shoot them a lot, you own maybe one but probably neither and hence I don’t give a shite what you think!

That was the answer I was hoping for! (except for the end bit).

I have had enough of my .243 X-Bolt (seized rotary magazine and the bolt binding on the back stroke).

So I am looking for a replacement, 6mm CM looks to be favourite as I can the look to stretch it over 1000yds with high BC bullets.
Hopefully I can find one in the UK for around £1000.

@dodgyknees do you go as low as 70gr bullets with yours?


Eddie

 

[ejg]

O dear, I didn't realise such sensitivities ran so deep amongst apparently "younger blokes"! Sorry.

Younger at mind... maybe.
anyway don't worry. In a few days or weeks the next will post about the high pressure loading of the 6.5x55 Swede and how much can be achieved with it. These threads crop up often. Question is how long has Europe had the 3800bar max on the Swede? maybe 100 years?
Once again it goes to show that it is sometimes a good thing to say good-bye to an old cartridge and keep things simple with only one standard, or two standards that are very close to each other. As in the 6.5CM SAAMI and CIP.
edi

 

[Muir]

Jeez. Three pages of this.
I have twelve, 6.5x55 and (With the addition of a recent purchase) five 6.5 Creedmoor.
I have been shooting and loading for 6.5x55 for about 40 years. I have been shooting and loading for Creedmoor for about five years -or when ever it was that I got my first.

The difference between them? Hardly anything when it comes to game and target. So why is the Creedmoor so popular when the venerable Swede has such a proven track record?? Speaking from the western side of the Big Pond, the 6.5x55 is a non starter. No new factory rifles seen on shelves. (or, rarely) Ammunition choices are limited to about 4 varieties at best. Seldom do you see un primed brass. When you do find a rifle it is in a stodgy hunting form. No racy target versions. None of the popular models.

On the other hand, the Creedmoor is made by about any company with a good business sense. Everyone makes ammunition for it. Go to even a smallish gun shop and you'll see 10 varieties of Creedmoor ammo in all price ranges and performance levels. The cartridge is chambered in all manners of guns including a pistol. So why would an American shooter seek out a Swede?? They won't, and like it or not, the US market drives the market world wide.

This all adds up to seeing the 6.5 Swede slip into the background. It's a great cartridge and will remain so, but it won't get much play by younger shooters for whom just getting the job done won't be good enough. As Edi alluded to, it's time to get over the resentment of the newer and more popular cartridge. JMHO ~Muir

 

[MarinePMI]

And to add to the above, it just flat out works. This was taken yesterday, while out hunting with Muir. 200yds, single shot, 130gr Game Changer bullet. He dressed out at 250lbs, so I doubt a 6.5x55 would have killed him deader. The rifle is a Tikka T-3, with a Carbon 6 CF barrel in a KRG Bravo chassis (with enclosed for end).

 

[25 Sharps]

Creedmoor will do nothing the swede won’t do if you reload.

 

[rem284]

If I had a 6.5x whatever and it shot well, then I would keep it. However if it was needing changed then I would be looking at the more modern cartridges ie 6.5cm, 6.5prc. Having said that I have a 6.5-284 and a 6.5x47 and all the dies to suit so I might replace like for like to save on buying new dies