A message to BASC...

[Rewulf]

I think the organisations jumped into a moving bus.

More like a moving gravy train....
Agree to disagree , but I just dont see how a pretty tiny part of the market can influence it , its more likely an EU thing thats carried on on its own momentum, where Brexit should really have put paid to the whole REACH thing ?
Did anyone lobby for this , nope .

I wont reopen the whole lead toxicity debacle , but I simply see it as a way of limiting what we can do , and how we do it....
A good example is the .243 issue, those who use them for deer in Scotland (for now) are going to have a problem, it might not seem a big thing to go up in calibre, but its another hill for us to climb.
And you put too many hills in peoples way, they give up, and I believe thats deliberate , come at shooters from multiple directions, doctors letters, lead ban, all we need now is a big price increase on certs , ammo ect, and you can start to see people giving up their shooting permanently.

 

[jimmy milnes]

More like a moving gravy train....
Agree to disagree , but I just dont see how a pretty tiny part of the market can influence it , its more likely an EU thing thats carried on on its own momentum, where Brexit should really have put paid to the whole REACH thing ?
Did anyone lobby for this , nope .

I wont reopen the whole lead toxicity debacle , but I simply see it as a way of limiting what we can do , and how we do it....
A good example is the .243 issue, those who use them for deer in Scotland (for now) are going to have a problem, it might not seem a big thing to go up in calibre, but its another hill for us to climb.
And you put too many hills in peoples way, they give up, and I believe thats deliberate , come at shooters from multiple directions, doctors letters, lead ban, all we need now is a big price increase on certs , ammo ect, and you can start to see people giving up their shooting permanently.

Hey seriously, if you're ever up Pontefract way give me a nudge, its my shout on the costas an cake matey
Cheers Jimmy.

 

[kes]

More like a moving gravy train....
Agree to disagree , but I just dont see how a pretty tiny part of the market can influence it , its more likely an EU thing thats carried on on its own momentum, where Brexit should really have put paid to the whole REACH thing ?
Did anyone lobby for this , nope .

I wont reopen the whole lead toxicity debacle , but I simply see it as a way of limiting what we can do , and how we do it....
A good example is the .243 issue, those who use them for deer in Scotland (for now) are going to have a problem, it might not seem a big thing to go up in calibre, but its another hill for us to climb.
And you put too many hills in peoples way, they give up, and I believe thats deliberate , come at shooters from multiple directions, doctors letters, lead ban, all we need now is a big price increase on certs , ammo ect, and you can start to see people giving up their shooting permanently.

This is not too far fetched - no one can doubt that removal of guns is an aspiration for those in power in the Police and parliament - 'death by a thousand cuts' it used to be called. Every day sees more potential targets being lined up for these people.
BASC and all the others, whether they amalgamate or not, should get together and agree a strategy and communicate this to members (unlike their position on lead). With lead they banded together for defence against what was a position non of their members could understand. I still do not accept their reasoning, as this means the Norwegians have it wrong - a country I greatly respect and whose hunting/shooting tradition goes back further then ours.
So where do we go from here, if no one will amalgamate (which is entirely logical and therefore wont be on their agenda)? All the orgs should have a meeting and decide a strategic agenda to protect shooting and agree to implement it. There is then only one VOICE and it must be listened to or disregarded - any change to law because of the latter should be challenged as should all like C Pack, RSPB etc. Some analysis should be done and published e.g. the standing orders for RSPB being agreed as RSPB was set up by a shooting man who specifically set down that the RSPB should not attack shooting.

If , as an org, you decide a joint strategy is best for self - protection against a backlash from your own members - (lead). How can a common agenda subscribed to by all orgs be the wrong way to go?
Time a bit of democracy crept into setting this agenda.
A couple of success and membership would begin to rise.
People care about shooting, who shoot. It is sad to say many in the orgs think only of perpetuating what has not worked to keep a low profile and their jobs. They would have a better chance of both if they asserted our position forcibly. It appears no one has the morale (intestinal) fortitude to do what should come naturally and what members pay for.

We will lose it all and passing on what's left to the next generation will be a travesty - unless we act now. Sad to say I know they will and consequently we will, go down with the ship.

 

[Rewulf]

You are a gentleman Sir , same invite if youre down Notts way !

 

[The deer man]

...They used to have 150000 members, who knows how many now, but are they representing all of us? No.
...They know the lead ban would be deeply unpopular, but they went off and proposed it anyway, off their own back, and for their OWN interests.
...They knew the doctors letter/fee was of great concern, did they lobby? No..

Last week BASC had in excess of 150,000 members.

BASC did not propose a lead ban. The lead ban came solely from the food industry, who are supplied by the game dealers of who'm many had no option but to insist game is shot with non-toxic ammunition. ALL the shooting organisations were backed into a corner to support non-toxic ammunition. In the society we live in today if anyone thinks we will get away with meat contaminated with lead they're living on cloud cuckoo land! Or do we want to hand the anti's ammunition (lead of course!). I hate it but we have to be realistic if we want to sell our game. As an aside I've spent some considerable time, effort and money developing copper ammunition and testing it on deer, and surprisingly it's accurate and works very well!

The doctors fees issue was lobbied against by a combination of shooting organisations and agreement was reached however individual doctors surgeries have ignored this agreement and conducted their business according to their business practice which similar to others is that if you supply a service you charge for it. They are a business. Did I agree with the doctors fees, no, I'd rather not pay anything. Bear in mind you need a doctors paid 'reference' for an HGV licence and a skippers licence (which I had to get and pay for) and probably many other things. They would argue "if we provide a service, we will charge for it", irrespective of how much at this point.

Back to lead again, at the moment it appears target shooting will be excluded from any lead ban along with the military and police, They only use up something like 99% of the lead ammunition market compared to the hunting markets about 1% remainder. Subsequently I've made some subtle enquiries and it seems to me the clay pigeon shooting fraternity, sorry clay target fraternity are keeping their heads well and truly down on this subject so don't expect any support from their quarters. Just like when shooters supported fox hunting but then fox hunters never supported shooters over the pistol ban.

Divide and conquer springs to mind!

 

[Kersnow]

Are any of the multitude of organisations that are meant to represent us doing anything effective to address the current delays, cessation of work etc. in the grant of new certificates? All seems to have gone quiet.

 

[308tikka]

May I suggest anyone dissatisfied with BASC relinquish membership and go with the much cheaper NGO which does have insurance.

We all do a form of gamekeeping....

Or, as members on a stalking forum, primarily deer, join the BDS whose magazine is actually useful !

 

[The deer man]

More like a moving gravy train....
Agree to disagree , but I just dont see how a pretty tiny part of the market can influence it , its more likely an EU thing thats carried on on its own momentum, where Brexit should really have put paid to the whole REACH thing ?
Did anyone lobby for this , nope .

I wont reopen the whole lead toxicity debacle , but I simply see it as a way of limiting what we can do , and how we do it....
A good example is the .243 issue, those who use them for deer in Scotland (for now) are going to have a problem, it might not seem a big thing to go up in calibre, but its another hill for us to climb.
And you put too many hills in peoples way, they give up, and I believe thats deliberate , come at shooters from multiple directions, doctors letters, lead ban, all we need now is a big price increase on certs , ammo ect, and you can start to see people giving up their shooting permanently.

Definitely an EU thing, they've been pushing the lead ban for years and also the ban on many re-loading powders. A means to their end to eradicate shooting. Restrictions in Germany appear even worse

I'd agree the .243 is looking dodgy in Scotland but there are new alternatives about and hopefully the legislation will change to reduce the weight to 80gr. I won't hold my breath but then I don't have to.

So what's the answer?

 

[bottletopbill]

Not one is putting anything up about the delays and no new application's. Seem's they are all the same it is just the cost per year that is the difference.
Got to decide who gets my money at the end of the month?

 

[Rewulf]

Last week BASC had in excess of 150,000 members.

Are you saying they havent lost any members lately ?
Because in my circle, most have dumped them !

BASC did not propose a lead ban.

After being steadfast against it for years , they most certainly DID.

The lead ban came solely from the food industry, who are supplied by the game dealers of who'm many had no option but to insist game is shot with non-toxic ammunition. ALL the shooting organisations were backed into a corner to support non-toxic ammunition.

Really , so what happens when folks dont bother using non toxic, and just cull ?
What will game dealers sell ?
The supply of game is a 2 way street, and if you really think they dictate the terms, for the pittance they often pay for shot game .....

As an aside I've spent some considerable time, effort and money developing copper ammunition and testing it on deer, and surprisingly it's accurate and works very well!

There you go , is everyone going to do that ?
Copper costs at least twice as much, not a massive outlay , but does it perform as well as lead , you know very well it doesnt.

In the society we live in today if anyone thinks we will get away with meat contaminated with lead they're living on cloud cuckoo land! Or do we want to hand the anti's ammunition (lead of course!). I hate it but we have to be realistic if we want to sell our game.

Ha ! The society we live in today would ban shooting fluffy creatures in 2 seconds flat, changing to non toxic will make NO difference , and if you think otherwise , well .....

The doctors fees issue was lobbied against by a combination of shooting organisations and agreement was reached however individual doctors surgeries have ignored this agreement and conducted their business according to their business practice which similar to others is that if you supply a service you charge for it. They are a business. Did I agree with the doctors fees, no, I'd rather not pay anything. Bear in mind you need a doctors paid 'reference' for an HGV licence and a skippers licence (which I had to get and pay for) and probably many other things. They would argue "if we provide a service, we will charge for it", irrespective of how much at this point.

No argument there , but like I say , BASC left members high and dry.

Back to lead again, at the moment it appears target shooting will be excluded from any lead ban along with the military and police, They only use up something like 99% of the lead ammunition market compared to the hunting markets about 1% remainder. Subsequently I've made some subtle enquiries and it seems to me the clay pigeon shooting fraternity, sorry clay target fraternity are keeping their heads well and truly down on this subject so don't expect any support from their quarters. Just like when shooters supported fox hunting but then fox hunters never supported shooters over the pistol ban.

Yes for now , but it will come , and DESTROY the sport in the UK.

Divide and conquer springs to mind!

Thats right , and BASC are helping do it.

 

[The deer man]

May I suggest anyone dissatisfied with BASC relinquish membership and go with the much cheaper NGO which does have insurance.

We all do a form of gamekeeping....

Or, as members on a stalking forum, primarily deer, join the BDS whose magazine is actually useful !

They all supported the lead ban!
Neither offer legal expense cover.
BDS campaigning for shooting is a joke.

 

[finnbear270]

They all supported the lead ban!
Neither offer legal expense cover.
BDS campaigning for shooting is a joke.

BDS are not the only jokers on the stage.

 

[baguio]

May I suggest anyone dissatisfied with BASC relinquish membership and go with the much cheaper NGO which does have insurance.

We all do a form of gamekeeping....

Or, as members on a stalking forum, primarily deer, join the BDS whose magazine is actually useful !

That's right, The National Gamekeepers Organisation where their insurance doesn't cover professional gamekeepers! "NGO members are covered up to £10 million public liability whilst taking part lawfully in any recognised gamekeeping/fieldsports activity endorsed by the NGO* for recreational purposes only"

 

[The deer man]

Are you saying they havent lost any members lately ?
Because in my circle, most have dumped them !

After being steadfast against it for years , they most certainly DID.

Really , so what happens when folks dont bother using non toxic, and just cull ?
What will game dealers sell ?
The supply of game is a 2 way street, and if you really think they dictate the terms, for the pittance they often pay for shot game .....

There you go , is everyone going to do that ?
Copper costs at least twice as much, not a massive outlay , but does it perform as well as lead , you know very well it doesnt.

Ha ! The society we live in today would ban shooting fluffy creatures in 2 seconds flat, changing to non toxic will make NO difference , and if you think otherwise , well .....

No argument there , but like I say , BASC left members high and dry.

Yes for now , but it will come , and DESTROY the sport in the UK.

Thats right , and BASC are helping do it.

In my circle BASC have lost members but they obviously also gain members.

There are game dealers with freezers stuffed with lead shot venison which they'll soon not be able to sell and they have driven us to change to copper. The supermarkets and large butcher chains couldn't give a damn about the shooting market, it's insignificant. You abide by their rules or get lost.

Copper does perform as well as lead and in most cases better and that is based on the many deer we've (our 8 man deer management team) shot with it since August. However I would also say there are some copper bullets out there which are simply crap which has a simple remedy, don't use them, in the same way there are crap lead bullets about.

Changing to non-toxic is the difference between the food industry sticking two fingers up to lead shot game or supplying what they want which we can do.

If BASC left everyone high and dry don't forget so did all the other organisations. Or perhaps we are so influential we can tell another business what and how to charge for their services. Do you work for free?

Divide and conquer, well shooters are all divided it seems so who needs enemies?

We can live in the past or adapt to the future. The more we entrench with bygone views the more we dig our own grave.

 

[Rewulf]

Changing to non-toxic is the difference between the food industry sticking two fingers up to lead shot game or supplying what they want which we can do.

You are in a slightly different position to most other shooters though, your livelihood depends on selling game, you are a minority.
Nothing wrong with that of course .
Your experiences of using non toxic too , are hardly mainstream Where are we at with lead free but if it works for you , good.

As Ive already said , we can agree to disagree on these matters, but we are all in it together, when one side of shooting or country pursuits goes down , it impacts and weakens all others.
If only we had an organisation that could unite us.... I used to think that organisation was BASC, but all they are interested in (at its core) are their own interests , and it will become apparent as time goes on.

 

[Basil H]

What do you mean by "their own interests" ? I would think that as a membership organisation "they" would want to draw in as many members as possible.
Or maybe not. i don't know.

 

[Rewulf]

What do you mean by "their own interests" ? I would think that as a membership organisation "they" would want to draw in as many members as possible.
Or maybe not. i don't know.

Think of all the biggest money spinners in shooting.
Top end grouse shooting .
Big corporate game days.
High end deer experiences.
These are BASCs interests, usually because they have a finger or two in the pie....

Your man out shooting a few pigeons , or doing a bit of foxing or rabbiting , even your clay shooters, the bulk of private firearms owners in this country, besides memberships , they dont make BASC any money, so BASC aint bothered about them.

 

[Ratel]

Last week BASC had in excess of 150,000 members.

BASC did not propose a lead ban. The lead ban came solely from the food industry, who are supplied by the game dealers of who'm many had no option but to insist game is shot with non-toxic ammunition. ALL the shooting organisations were backed into a corner to support non-toxic ammunition. In the society we live in today if anyone thinks we will get away with meat contaminated with lead they're living on cloud cuckoo land! Or do we want to hand the anti's ammunition (lead of course!). I hate it but we have to be realistic if we want to sell our game. As an aside I've spent some considerable time, effort and money developing copper ammunition and testing it on deer, and surprisingly it's accurate and works very well!

The doctors fees issue was lobbied against by a combination of shooting organisations and agreement was reached however individual doctors surgeries have ignored this agreement and conducted their business according to their business practice which similar to others is that if you supply a service you charge for it. They are a business. Did I agree with the doctors fees, no, I'd rather not pay anything. Bear in mind you need a doctors paid 'reference' for an HGV licence and a skippers licence (which I had to get and pay for) and probably many other things. They would argue "if we provide a service, we will charge for it", irrespective of how much at this point.

Back to lead again, at the moment it appears target shooting will be excluded from any lead ban along with the military and police, They only use up something like 99% of the lead ammunition market compared to the hunting markets about 1% remainder. Subsequently I've made some subtle enquiries and it seems to me the clay pigeon shooting fraternity, sorry clay target fraternity are keeping their heads well and truly down on this subject so don't expect any support from their quarters. Just like when shooters supported fox hunting but then fox hunters never supported shooters over the pistol ban.

Divide and conquer springs to mind!

News to me that silly statement. Nobody got a chance to support anybody over the pistol ban. The govt just banned them no argument.

 

[bottletopbill]

Shooter's need a new approach to save us all regardless of who you are with and voice there opinions to there shooting group.

So BASC tell me are you talking to other group's about the problem's we are facing.

Or any other group's concerned with our issue's are you doing anything as well.

 

[baguio]

You are in a slightly different position to most other shooters though, your livelihood depends on selling game, you are a minority.

How do you know that he's in the minority? You really need to get your blinkers off because you clearly don't have the slightest clue about this deer management lark. Just because you only shoot a handful of deer a year doesn't mean that we all do. Crikey, if I couldn't sell game on to dealers I would be stuffed. Once you start shooting more than the odd fallow and bigger you rely on game dealers and there are a whole load of us on here who do that! Now I appreciate that you will come back that you shoot millions but give them all away but that's just Horlicks and we all know it!
You don't pay for anyone to represent shooting so IMO you have a brass neck to expect BASC to do anything for you. You can bleat all you like but unless you support shooting through your pocket then you're backing Packham IMO.