Another angle on the lead or non-lead debate.

[Deerkeeper2]

Lead or non-lead ammunition. We are hearing a lot about this at the moment and a lot of the discussion isn’t very helpful at best or is downright biased.

This recent podcast from the US is very interesting and covers some very useful topics in a sensible and easy to understand way.

I strongly urge everyone to listen to it, especially those involved in decision making on the way forward in the UK. It is also worth having a look at some of the links in the show description.

Please only comment once you have listened to it, no need for further general debate.

Thanks.

 

[Liveonce]

is their a link to it ?

 

[WW.]

 

[Heym SR20]

There are no working links to the Podcast.

Having had a very close view of science in how lead affects the immune system, and in particular how it effects the P53 proteins and their ability to clean up stray proteins, in particular cancerous cells, combined with the general wide recognition that lead is a pretty harmful substance to man and all other living things, I really do not want to add more lead into my food chain or that of others.

I have found non toxic bullets to be just as effective on deer and other animals. Indeed they leave a cleaner carcass which results in less wasted meat. As a wildfowler I have been using non toxic steel shot for the best part of 20 odd years. I do not see any valid good reason to continue using lead on hunted birds and animals and continue putting lead into the environment, especially on arable land where crops are grown, and lead then goes into our food through the grains we eat.

I don’t see banning use of lead bullets as being an affront to my freedoms and civil liberties. Given the knowledge of its harmful effects, I don’t want to continue adding lead to the environment.

Plastics - I don’t like using them either, hence avoid plastic wads etc.

Has my shooting been compromised? - yes a little. I don’t use my 410 very much, and not on game. Sooner or later the trade will bring onto the UK market affordable steel 410 and 28 bore cartridges that are available elsewhere.

If shooting old vintage guns that a non steel compatible I will use bismuth or other alternatives such as Hortonium as they become available. I will use them sparingly and savour every shot.

 

[Liveonce]

Free ammunition cannot see the HSE doing that A lot of waffle pistol not a problem in the U.K.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

This might work



You click on the play button in the image above.

 

[timbrayford]

There are no working links to the Podcast.

Having had a very close view of science in how lead affects the immune system, and in particular how it effects the P53 proteins and their ability to clean up stray proteins, in particular cancerous cells, combined with the general wide recognition that lead is a pretty harmful substance to man and all other living things, I really do not want to add more lead into my food chain or that of others.

I have found non toxic bullets to be just as effective on deer and other animals. Indeed they leave a cleaner carcass which results in less wasted meat. As a wildfowler I have been using non toxic steel shot for the best part of 20 odd years. I do not see any valid good reason to continue using lead on hunted birds and animals and continue putting lead into the environment, especially on arable land where crops are grown, and lead then goes into our food through the grains we eat.

I don’t see banning use of lead bullets as being an affront to my freedoms and civil liberties. Given the knowledge of its harmful effects, I don’t want to continue adding lead to the environment.

Plastics - I don’t like using them either, hence avoid plastic wads etc.

Has my shooting been compromised? - yes a little. I don’t use my 410 very much, and not on game. Sooner or later the trade will bring onto the UK market affordable steel 410 and 28 bore cartridges that are available elsewhere.

If shooting old vintage guns that a non steel compatible I will use bismuth or other alternatives such as Hortonium as they become available. I will use them sparingly and savour every shot.

You make your choices based on your beliefs and the rest of us, at the moment are free to make ours. Unless you are some kind of totalitarian control freak you I presume that you have no objection to that?

 

[Heym SR20]

You make your choices based on your beliefs and the rest of us, at the moment are free to make ours. Unless you are some kind of totalitarian control freak you I presume that you have no objection to that?

No I do not stop you doing as you wish.

But given the clear facts about lead and that it has been pretty much removed from other walk of life - household paints, industrial paints, petrol, solders used in plumbing and electronics etc etc. FFS even boxes of ammunition and cartridges contain warnings about the dangers of lead, I have no issue with anybody using lead provided they are the only ones who suffer the consequences.

I think just anybody on here would be angry if they saw somebody open the car window and through out all their cardboard burger packaging onto the verge, or worse started spraying known poisons onto your land. So why do we think its ok to do it with lead?

 

[Liveonce]

No I do not stop you doing as you wish.

But given the clear facts about lead and that it has been pretty much removed from other walk of life - household paints, industrial paints, petrol, solders used in plumbing and electronics etc etc. FFS even boxes of ammunition and cartridges contain warnings about the dangers of lead, I have no issue with anybody using lead provided they are the only ones who suffer the consequences.

I think just anybody on here would be angry if they saw somebody open the car window and through out all their cardboard burger packaging onto the verge, or worse started spraying known poisons onto your land. So why do we think its ok to do it with lead?

is not one litter and the other with the permission of the land owner who probably is making a lot of money for allowing the lead or protecting his livelihood.

Until or if the law changes we can choose what we shoot with and the proposal looks to be satisfying some agendas and not other.

 

[Heym SR20]

is not one litter and the other with the permission of the land owner who probably is making a lot of money for allowing the lead or protecting his livelihood.

Until or if the law changes we can choose what we shoot with and the proposal looks to be satisfying some agendas and not other.

So in other words you are totally ok with landowners allowing land to be polluted then provided they earn money from it, and would have no issues with a landowner allowing the dumping of several tonnes of toxic chemicals next to your property over a number of years, provided those who did the dumping were dressed in plus fours or ghillie suits?

 

[Smellydog]

So in other words you are totally ok with landowners allowing land to be polluted then provided they earn money from it, and would have no issues with a landowner allowing the dumping of several tonnes of toxic chemicals next to your property then over a number of years?

They already do buddy. It's called agrochemicals and slurry.
Your world is so black and white buddy.
Hey, you don't touch anything galvanised do you, it's got lead in it!

You believe what you like, but I assure you and you keep ignoring it, lead has NOT been removed from all manufacturing at all.

How come we don't hear horror stories from the millions of munition manufacturers work forces globally?
Could it be that maybe they have learnt how to handle it safely?
Like other industries do with lethal chemicals and viruses, how about the atomic industry, have they learnt a trick or two?
Or should we always have a knee tremble about a potential threat to our mortal lives?

You my friend are at greater risk driving a car in the UK than any amount of lead sprinkled about!
Maybe you should campaign for other health damaging lifestyles. Be the hero that no one asked for!
Your not being balanced. The papers you have read have convinced you that your opinion despite saying you respect others choice is the right one. It isn't, period.
It isn't because until you fix far more seriousness life threatening poisons ridding us of lead ain't going to make the slightest difference!

 

[Deerkeeper2]

Guys, quite a lot of this has been beaten to death in the other thread on this topic, lets not start another battle. I only posted this to make people aware of the podcast as it raises some very good points especially in relations to the way different ‘versions’ of lead affect the human body.

 

[Liveonce]

So in other words you are totally ok with landowners allowing land to be polluted then provided they earn money from it, and would have no issues with a landowner allowing the dumping of several tonnes of toxic chemicals next to your property over a number of years, provided those who did the dumping were dressed in plus fours or ghillie suits?

I did not say that, do remember lead comes from the ground.

However no I would set a limit on the number of game birds a shoot could put down like 1000 and no more or ban it all together as simulated clay game shooting is available and very enjoyable.

You are concerned about the lead in the environment what about the damage millions of game birds every year do on the fauna and flora?

 

[Liveonce]

Guys, quite a lot of this has been beaten to death in the other thread on this topic, lets not start another battle. I only posted this to make people aware of the podcast as it raises some very good points especially in relations to the way different ‘versions’ of lead affect the human body.

indeed but lead from game meat is a very low down the list of foods that contain lead.

 

[timbrayford]

No I do not stop you doing as you wish.

But given the clear facts about lead and that it has been pretty much removed from other walk of life - household paints, industrial paints, petrol, solders used in plumbing and electronics etc etc. FFS even boxes of ammunition and cartridges contain warnings about the dangers of lead, I have no issue with anybody using lead provided they are the only ones who suffer the consequences.

I think just anybody on here would be angry if they saw somebody open the car window and through out all their cardboard burger packaging onto the verge, or worse started spraying known poisons onto your land. So why do we think its ok to do it with lead?

Because I don't accept the basic arguments against lead as anything other than exaggeration and scaremongering

 

[timbrayford]

Incidentally I raised two issues with the HSE consultation, firstly the lack of any scientific research that demonstrated any significant risk from plated shot and secondly the lack of a comparitive risk assessment on the dangers of using steel shot. They failed to address both of these issues.

 

[Heym SR20]

Because I don't accept the basic arguments against lead as anything other than exaggeration and scaremongering

Plenty don’t think that smoking or alcohol are harmful either.

 

[HonestJohn]

Plenty don’t think that smoking or alcohol are harmful either.

Come on! Don’t ruin my Monday night

 

[Liveonce]

Plenty don’t think that smoking or alcohol are harmful either.

But they don’t ban them do they

 

[Smellydog]

But they don’t ban them do they

Hmmm, funny that!
They don't ban neonicotinoids either.
I smell ****ish prejudice somewhere....