AW's ..... Ever had a bad one???

[willie_gunn]

I am currently doing my DSC2.... Not saying I know more than my AW .. But it's an odd feeling!

Think of it from the AW's perspective!

I witnessed the stalker on the estate in Sutherland where I've been going for 16 years. He's shot more deer than I'm likely to see in my lifetime, but he was going for his L2 so I witnessed him. That certainly felt odd from my side of the fence

And yes, he's seen me mess things up a few times too

willie_gunn

 

[Simjim33]

I think you must have the perception that attainment of level two costs a fortune and eat into a stalking budget.
I admit you have to acquire the portfolio however given what we spend on our sport generally i think is modest. After that it's just more stalking which we do anyway. Admittedly the stalking has to be done with a witness but that needn't cost more than a standard accompanied payed stalk, many witnesses don't charge extra. If you have your own ground I am sure there are witnesses that would travel to you in exchange for a stalk themselves. I admit I have never done that myself though.
Overall I think there is a definite advantage to achieving level 2 if you wish to gain stalking or indeed under some circumstances not loose it. I have been given ground that I would not have got without it so for me it really paid off and thats why I witness and don't charge for it.

Yes, I see your point.
It reflects mine in a wired kind of way. Indeed you have seen a benefit from it and because of it you have secured more ground on the strength of it.

My contention is that for "normal" paying clients there is no benefit too it at all, in fact it's almost irrelevant. In my mind this explanes the difference in take up levels for L2.

I think getting a lease has more to do with the fact of how big your pockets are. The demonstration of ability is better seen to the land owner (if they can be bothered) in a bedding in period at the start of the new lease ( something I would seek in some form of any lease agreement )

This next bit is in no way intended to offend any AW's, Pro Stalkers/managers, DMQ, the Queen or God.

But as regard to standards in detection relevant to DSC L2, they are "minimum" and a reinforcement of what's learnt then practiced after L1.

This was highlighted for me when, I was very fortunate to have arranged for me, a trip to the veterinary laborities in surrey. Now that is an eye opener.

I would love to see if there was any real evidence of a rise in standards is continued after the certificate for L2 has been issued.

Has any one thats got L2 think that after refection it was worth it? Especially if you are not fortunate enough to have your own land and had to pay more money on top of your regular expenses incured with stalking?

 

[willie_gunn]

Jim

You raise an interesting point.

I have L2 and, for me at least, it was worth it. I have an interest in all things deer and stalking related, so a chance to increase my knowledge and expertise was not to be passed by. That's also why I took the BDS Deer Manager's course. I didn't need to do the Level 2, but I wanted to, which is why I would say there is a difference in uptake between L1 and L2. One is seen (often incorrectly) as compulsory, the other is purely voluntary.

As it happens, gaining my L2 also let me progress to being a retained stalker, meaning I can guide clients, and an AW, both of which let me put something back into the sport. I do have my own ground as well, albeit small, but that works for me as my job requires me to travel extensively, so having 1000's of acres of my own wouldn't be practical either.

So far as your comment on standards, the difference between L1 and L2 is perhaps more marked than you think. There are plenty of stalkers with L1 who are not ready for L2, as they simply lack the practice. That aside, L2 is not designed to be anything like the level of training of a veterinary - that's like comparing a knowledge of simple first aid to being a surgeon. Instead its meant to help you judge what is, and is not, suitable to go into the human food chain.

willie_gunn

 

[Paul at Fechan]

I saw level 2 as something to do to show that I was competent. Many people simply do not have the time, experience or ability to do level 2 and money aside many see it as a hassle and so the reason for the discrepency as you put it.

Fact is and people need to swallow this, if you don't have at least level 1 and are working towards level 2 then your access to new leases in terms of the forestry organisations is very limited. You are not demonstrating as a stalker that you are trying to aspire to industry best practice and that's not the sort of person they want managing deer on woodland they are responsible for.

Best of luck with people getting stalking but the likes of the FC, SW and Tilhill don't want recreational trophy boys on the grounds where a job needs done if you know where i'm coming from. That then means you need to work on private land owners and is very hard work these days.

 

[Glen Cadwallader]

Think of it from the AW's perspective!

I witnessed the stalker on the estate in Sutherland where I've been going for 16 years. He's shot more deer than I'm likely to see in my lifetime, but he was going for his L2 so I witnessed him. That certainly felt odd from my side of the fence

And yes, he's seen me mess things up a few times too

willie_gunn

I'm with you on that Willie!

You will need to give me a shout next time your up, I'll get you out for a day in Caithness with me.

 

[DazT]

I saw level 2 as something to do to show that I was competent. Fact is and people need to swallow this, if you don't have at least level 1 and are working towards level 2 then your access to new leases in terms of the forestry organisations is very limited. You are not demonstrating as a stalker that you are trying to aspire to industry best practice and that's not the sort of person they want managing deer on woodland they are responsible for.

Yep i thought exactly the same thing! I want to prove that i am competent and having missed out on opportunities through NOT having a level 2 i am now registered for it. I think it does give you credability too. If people don't do the level 2 and progress to AW - there will come a time when there won't be many around to help people.

Daz

 

[roering]

done my level 2 with forestry commision ranger , found him really good if people don,t want to get ripped off try the fc rangers in your area that are AWs also they have access to plenty of land , I had to do my level 2 ,because i was on a fc lease, if i did not complete it was out of syndicate along with the other members , but in the end glad i did it ,

 

[Simjim33]

Thanks for the information.

So it seams that only the FC seams to like it then. Ok but FC leases are as rare as unicorns round my neck of the new forest, so for me personally there is still not much point to it.

I just want to take the oppertunity to state that my trip to the post mortem rooms was with the intent of finding out more about noticeable diesases, and what we as stalkers can do to be more confident in ND detection. Nothing to do with any vet training. So that said I think if the standards that DMQ set are industry standards then they realy are basic. Sorry if that offends, it's not meant too.

As there is so much misconception regarding what the l2 actually means. Plus the apparent lack of a official standard rate for fee's that AW's can charge. I can only conclude that the DMQ still need to put more effort into this level.

But I would like to thank those of you who do not charge extra for AW stalks. Also those of you who ask for nothing to help others improve there skills.

I have been told enoght times from fellow stalkers how much they had to shell out for what then amounts to a very expencive bit of paper. That it's not for me currently, if ever.

 

[Eric the Red]

I think what comes out of here is ones personal motivation. Some will pay out to do courses for work - others for enjoyment - some are mandatory, others ( as in this case) less so - and the 'value' perceived will be different for each and everyone of us. This is a little bit of a tangent from the OP though as it related to the experiences currently had from people using AW's - and whether the expreience has improved since DMQ sharpened their tools on best practice. Having the opportunity to do a course such as this with a credible, 'valuable' outcome for the participant - if one wishes - is surely the most important thing.

 

[Simjim33]

I think what comes out of here is ones personal motivation. Some will pay out to do courses for work - others for enjoyment - some are mandatory, others ( as in this case) less so - and the 'value' perceived will be different for each and everyone of us. This is a little bit of a tangent from the OP though as it related to the experiences currently had from people using AW's - and whether the expreience has improved since DMQ sharpened their tools on best practice. Having the opportunity to do a course such as this with a credible, 'valuable' outcome for the participant - if one wishes - is surely the most important thing.

Ok maybe a bit of a tangent. If the OP wishes then I will start another thread on the subject.

Two of the AW's that Jelen have on the team,that I know off,are good blokes. One is a personal friend, we did have a conversation about DSC L2 quite a while ago. At that point and after weighing up the actual objectives, it was decided (by me ) that's it's not for me (currently). But maybe one day in the future that might change. In which case I know who I will call to do the AW for me.

 

[JC275]

Slimjim, you keep emphasising how basic DSC2 is and you clearly feel that it is beneath you, you also state that you have friends who are AW's, given these facts, why not just do it? Obviously it would only take you three short stalks and I'm sure your friends wouldn't charge you for witnessing so it's only going to cost you about £90(?) to register. One thing is for certain, your critisism would have more credibility if you were inside the tent peeing out rather than outside peeing in.

In another post you, quite rightly, say how proud you are of your sons interest in shooting, do you think that, when the time comes, he will be able to get an FAC without a recognised qualification?

JC

 

[jcampbellsmith]

... At that point and after weighing up the actual objectives, it was decided (by me ) that's it's not for me (currently). .....

Interesting approach. I was at a small SE Scotland BDS event yesterday. Out of the 10 folk attending, 6 had their DSC II and one is just about done with one stalk to go on his DSC II. If you are serious about your stalking, go and do it. In common with many qualifications, it's not perfect, but it's well worth the effort. Regards JCS

 

[Paul at Fechan]

that's a very valid point. Most of the stalkers that are good at what they do or are professionally motivated are L2 and within industry to go on the fit and comp register for scotland which you can register with your L2 and it remains valid for 5 years from the date of the award. After that you need to be signed on with 2 aw's basically.

 

[Simjim33]

Thanks Paul,

Now there is a reason to have L2. Does being on register help get leases then?

 

[DAThornley]

i have recently started revising for level 2 with the help of approved witness jimbo 30 06, can only say that its been a pleasure to meet someone who has a polite friendly manner when going through the question and answers, explains things clearly so you understand what is required, plus he does it all free of charge,keep up the good work jim, hope all goes well next week in scotland

 

[Cooter]

After completing my DSC2 portfolio, which I took two years over, I can only say that I met some very knowledgeable people, gained a great deal of experience, and after watching the diesel pump clock over £100 when Robbo was filling up his truck, I think the cost was worth every penny.

The time and money that the AW's I met have invested in their business (and that includes Jelen whom I did a park cull with) is clear to see, and should be admired.
You can get stung, but as others have said, do your research, the AW's that get mentioned positively do so for a reason.

 

[easter916]

Hi Mike,
Paul in Dorset did some stalking a few years ago with you. Completed my 2 a while back, a bad AW is one that charges to much when stalking on your patch, fair enough on his patch pay the going rate, also one that will only except their way of doing things, everyone has their own habits. the AW should stand back and watch, then assess if the actions of the stalker (did the stalker reach the required standard). They are their to assess not interfere.

cheers Paul
T

 

[RichardAllen]

I have DSC1 and have been thinking about DSC2. While discussing a possible permission with the National Trust, they mentioned that they normally want DSC 2.

Regards
Richard

 

[Herne]

I have stalked with several level2 witnesses but only 1 AW, someone high on the list and a very early AW

I can't compliment him highly enough. Incredibly knowledgeable, experienced and passionate about deer and stalking.

Even as part of level 2 I have learned a great deal, during the what would you do if... scenario's and supplementary questions. I also learned that old keepers know a lot, but not everything!! My good friend a stalker for 40 years who has shot almost 5000 deer in his career is doing his level 1 soon and is somewhat nervous!

It's been a great journey, I would wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone serious about their stalking (and with the right level of experience) to do it, before it becomes manadatory!

H.

H.

 

[bobt]

I have just got my level 2 papers back,
I could have used 2 CWs and one AW
I chose to do all three with John at YDS looking over me, so much I got stage fright on the gralloch,
I cant reccomend him highly enough.
thanks John.