Basc voluntary lead ban

[Sea trout]

I changed this season to steel for my game shooting. Biodegradable shot cups allowed me to do this. I shoot mainly wildfowl and do so exclusively with steel. Anyone who tells me that it is not a viable alternative is either a bad shot ir has never used it. I switched over because i think modern steel ammunition is superior to lead.

See why some people feel like they were not consulted, but it’s is a two way street and you have to engage with BASC. Everyone hasknown that this is on the radar but i doubt many aired their views directly to BASC.

you know, just saying

 

[BryanDC]

Put a lid on the uncontrolled Europhilia! The proximate threat of a lead ban arose because of current EU proposals to ban it. The threat is not UK-specific. In fact, the UK government has recently rejected a lead ban because there is not sufficient scientific evidence to merit it. Thus far, the belief that lead must be banned or a lead ban is inevitable is nothing more than superstition.
Looking at the alternatives, they obviously don't stack up, or we'd be using them anyway.
This government has no interest in banning lead. They've already rejected it this decade and there's no incentive to revisit the issue, except in the situation where they would be forced to by EU legislation, which is still binding until Dec 2020, and forever if the EU's idea of an acceptable FTA is negotiated.

Installing a lightning conductor is a trivial inconvenience, not in the least remotely comparable to the damage, cost and inconvenience of this week's idiocy. This proposal is a colossal clusterf**k.

As I say I think you are being naive. What I was trying to point out is that, I don't think it is just the EU that wants a ban on lead. You have a prime minister who's girlfriend is anti hunting with her own agenda. You have the green party that is growing and you have a Labour party that is anti shooting. At some point, and I did say maybe not this year or maybe not in the next 5 years or maybe not even in the next 10. BUT at some point lead will get banned by legislation.

For example; what happens when WJ decide that their next campaign will be to get lead shot banned?

If you can't see that with this announcement of their desire to move away from lead, that the shooting organisations are being proactive then you are being very short sighted. I agree whole heartedly that it is a shame that they couldn't get together on some of the other issues that you are facing in the UK, but maybe this will lead the way to better cooperation between them.

 

[Apthorpe]

As I say I think you are being naive. What I was trying to point out is that, I don't think it is just the EU that wants a ban on lead. You have a prime minister who's girlfriend is anti hunting with her own agenda. You have the green party that is growing and you have a Labour party that is anti shooting. At some point, and I did say maybe not this year or maybe not in the next 5 years or maybe not even in the next 10. BUT at some point lead will get banned by legislation.

For example; what happens when WJ decide that their next campaign will be to get lead shot banned?

If you can't see that with this announcement of their desire to move away from lead, that the shooting organisations are being proactive then you are being very short sighted. I agree whole heartedly that it is a shame that they couldn't get together on some of the other issues that you are facing in the UK, but maybe this will lead the way to better cooperation between them.

On the contrary, I believe that you are being naïve.

It's your opinion that not only the Eu want a ban on lead or shooting. No major political party in the UK admits to being anti-shooting. The Labour party obviously is, but it is notable that they didn't ban lead last time they were in when the science and the arguments were precisely the same as now. The Green party is insignificant in this country and outside Brighton is of very little relevance to anybody. It is also bonkers.

What happens when WJ take a crack at lead? Well, nothing. Because their are legal activists, they can only campaign in areas where they see a difference between current practice and their interpretation of the law. There is no law that potentially prevents the use of lead shot. You won't like it, but I would also point out that all of their activities to date have relied on EU legislation.

The shooting organisations are indeed being proactive.....in moving towards a goal of no more shooting.
Let's suppose this is a step towards a situation that you think the antis will tolerate. What is the final destination? Where is the sustainable situation where suddenly antis and communists, magically become pro-shooting or neutral? It doesn't exist! It's wilful naivete (at best) to pretend there's a compromise solution. There is no point taking any step to appease these people because they are only appeased when you have become a vegan, have no guns or implements more dangerous than a drinking straw and have signed up to a neo-communist totalitarian state....if they haven't decided you're a class enemy or intelligent and need to be killed. You probably think this sounds very over the top....it is, but it precisely mirrors what these people have actually been on record saying they want.

Lead shot is dealt with. What next? Oh, NOx emissions from the powder. OK, we go along with that proactively too. Now we have guns that we can't fire adequate shot through, but it doesn't matter because they won't go bang anyway, and we won't be allowed to have them.

To finish on a serious note, where exactly do you imagine a "proactive" solution which will satisfy the great unwashed to lie?

 

[BryanDC]

To finish on a serious note, where exactly do you imagine a "proactive" solution which will satisfy the great unwashed to lie?

Maybe with a lot more positive promotion of the country sports I grew up. Not just from the organisations which I believe to be absolutely terrible in this respect but from you and everyone else involved in these sports. I'll give you an example. Two days ago a professor at the University here in Aarhus decided to publicly state that he didn't think that Mårhund were a particular problem as an invasive species and that we should just leave them alone. Yesterday there was a concerted effort by the Jægerforbund and local hunters that resulted in a section on the national news putting over our side of it to the press and the public. That's what is needed but from everyone not just the BASC.

 

[Redleg]

On the contrary, I believe that you are being naïve.

It's your opinion that not only the Eu want a ban on lead or shooting. No major political party in the UK admits to being anti-shooting. The Labour party obviously is, but it is notable that they didn't ban lead last time they were in when the science and the arguments were precisely the same as now. The Green party is insignificant in this country and outside Brighton is of very little relevance to anybody. It is also bonkers.

What happens when WJ take a crack at lead? Well, nothing. Because their are legal activists, they can only campaign in areas where they see a difference between current practice and their interpretation of the law. There is no law that potentially prevents the use of lead shot. You won't like it, but I would also point out that all of their activities to date have relied on EU legislation.

The shooting organisations are indeed being proactive.....in moving towards a goal of no more shooting.
Let's suppose this is a step towards a situation that you think the antis will tolerate. What is the final destination? Where is the sustainable situation where suddenly antis and communists, magically become pro-shooting or neutral? It doesn't exist! It's wilful naivete (at best) to pretend there's a compromise solution. There is no point taking any step to appease these people because they are only appeased when you have become a vegan, have no guns or implements more dangerous than a drinking straw and have signed up to a neo-communist totalitarian state....if they haven't decided you're a class enemy or intelligent and need to be killed. You probably think this sounds very over the top....it is, but it precisely mirrors what these people have actually been on record saying they want.

Lead shot is dealt with. What next? Oh, NOx emissions from the powder. OK, we go along with that proactively too. Now we have guns that we can't fire adequate shot through, but it doesn't matter because they won't go bang anyway, and we won't be allowed to have them.

To finish on a serious note, where exactly do you imagine a "proactive" solution which will satisfy the great unwashed to lie?

From what has been doing the rounds on Social media the BASC has a vested interest in a lead ban.
Apparently they have heavily invested in the BGA so it would stand to reason they would want to phase lead out otherwise they would have invested time and money for nothing.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

My pal a vet from Freiburg was visiting me 2 days ago he told me the clay club range 10kms from him has been fully renovated but will not allow lead shot, it is a Baden Wurtembergs ruling.
FYI is 10,200 tonnes enough?
According to the United States Geological Survey, the world mining production of bismuth in 2016 was 10,200 tonnes, with the major contributions from China (7,400 tonnes), Vietnam (2,000 tonnes) and Mexico (700 tonnes).[54] The refinery production in 2016 was 17,100 tonnes, of which China produced 11,000, Mexico 539 and Japan 428 tonnes.[55] The difference reflects bismuth's status as a byproduct of extraction of other metals such as lead, copper, tin, molybdenum and tungsten.

 

[kes]

I am sure a lot of conspiracy theories will come to light - many may well be correct but at its simplest level, why would you do this now after staunch objection? Nobody knows but would you trust anyone who's position changes like a weather cock ?

 

[enfieldspares]

A voluntary ban is stupid. With a legal ban the UK Government is obliged to pay compensation.

This happened with full bore pistols in 1996 and included the projectiles, the cartridge cases, the powders and etc., etc.. With a voluntary scheme this does not exist. Indeed the restriction of .22RF pistols to secure club premises under the Tories meant that the compensation scheme for them was different. When Labour came in in 1997 they introduced legislation that repealed the Tories' allowing of .22RF pistols at secure club premises. In effect they made the Tories/ "de facto" .22RF ban a "de jure" .22RF ban and so made better the compensation scheme for that calibre of weapon.

This voluntary ban has removed any obligation on a future government to pay compensation.

 

[timbrayford]

Well just stop using lead shot being used on game food going into the public food chain then , if your eating the game yourself use what ever and pest control like crows magpies etc use what you what not try and ban the lot , isn’t that a far better option

To some extent yes, especially if using Damascus barrels or muzzle loaders, provided of course a biodegradable wad is used.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

A voluntary ban is stupid. With a legal ban the UK Government is obliged to pay compensation.

This happened with full bore pistols in 1996 and included the projectiles, the cartridge cases, the powders and etc., etc.. With a voluntary scheme this does not exist. Indeed the restriction of .22RF pistols to secure club premises under the Tories meant that the compensation scheme for them was different. When Labour came in in 1997 they introduced legislation that repealed the Tories' allowing of .22RF pistols at secure club premises. In effect they made the Tories/ "de facto" .22RF ban a "de jure" .22RF ban and so made better the compensation scheme for that calibre of weapon.

This voluntary ban has removed any obligation on a future government to pay compensation.

Damn good point there.

 

[timbrayford]

I think the reality is that you can count the "non-shooting consumers of game" on very few fingers. and their wishes are of zero relevance to the majority of shooters, whose game is not placed on the market.

Although dating from 2104 the PACEC report gives an insight , 35% amounts to an awful lot of fingers, and since then we have seen increasing amounts of shot game looking for non- shooting consumers. http://www.shootingfacts.co.uk/pdf/The-Value-of-Shooting-2014.pdf

 

[timbrayford]

A voluntary ban is stupid. With a legal ban the UK Government is obliged to pay compensation.

This happened with full bore pistols in 1996 and included the projectiles, the cartridge cases, the powders and etc., etc.. With a voluntary scheme this does not exist. Indeed the restriction of .22RF pistols to secure club premises under the Tories meant that the compensation scheme for them was different. When Labour came in in 1997 they introduced legislation that repealed the Tories' allowing of .22RF pistols at secure club premises. In effect they made the Tories/ "de facto" .22RF ban a "de jure" .22RF ban and so made better the compensation scheme for that calibre of weapon.

This voluntary ban has removed any obligation on a future government to pay compensation.

Its not a ban, its a discontinuance!

 

[Mickeydredd]

I don't agree. So far as I understand it, the only reason a ban on lead is seen as inevitable is that the EU wants to ban it.

not sure that is the point really.

If the major market for the end product is the EU then if they ban the import of lead-shot game then what happens to all the game shot in the uk? Unless we have a massive expansion on game consumption in the UK then commercial shooting would inevitably come under even further scrutiny as they would lose their argument for the game being consumed and not just dumped due to no market for it.

 

[enfieldspares]

If the major market for the end product is the EU then if they ban the import of lead-shot game then what happens to all the game shot in the uk? Unless we have a massive expansion on game consumption in the UK then commercial shooting would inevitably come under even further scrutiny as they would lose their argument for the game being consumed and not just dumped due to no market for it.

And that's the point.

1) Everybody else has been thrown under the bus to protect the interests of the "big bag" boys who in truth anyway at £35 a bird shot could afford to use alternatives in any case.

2) There was a much published press release some time ago about "250,000 pheasants" being sold to Hong Kong so no everything is the EU.

3) The "big bag" boys don't give a stuff about but themselves. Echoes of the hunting ban when certain groups were saying that control of foxes by shooting was a public safety risk.

 

[Sea trout]

A voluntary ban is stupid. With a legal ban the UK Government is obliged to pay compensation.

This happened with full bore pistols in 1996 and included the projectiles, the cartridge cases, the powders and etc., etc.. With a voluntary scheme this does not exist. Indeed the restriction of .22RF pistols to secure club premises under the Tories meant that the compensation scheme for them was different. When Labour came in in 1997 they introduced legislation that repealed the Tories' allowing of .22RF pistols at secure club premises. In effect they made the Tories/ "de facto" .22RF ban a "de jure" .22RF ban and so made better the compensation scheme for that calibre of weapon.

This voluntary ban has removed any obligation on a future government to pay compensation.

i have no idea why anyone would be due compensation when bismuth is available as are alternative guns. Vintage guns have become obsolete not banned

 

[Sea trout]

And that's the point.

1) Everybody else has been thrown under the bus to protect the interests of the "big bag" boys who in truth anyway at £35 a bird shot could afford to use alternatives in any case.

2) There was a much published press release some time ago about "250,000 pheasants" being sold to Hong Kong so no everything is the EU.

3) The "big bag" boys don't give a stuff about but themselves. Echoes of the hunting ban when certain groups were saying that control of foxes by shooting was a public safety risk.

big bag shoots are the BIG pink elephant. The practices required to produce said big bags are not sustainable (lets leave that there). There are environmental impacts, these shoots often struggle to get rid of their game as supply outstrips demand and most of all and how many bloody animals do you need to kill in a day in order to have a good time????

The anti’s have a blank cheque to recruit more antis when they can show this practice. Shooters need to reflect and if they want to be doing this sport in 20years they need to have a think about their image now and be prepared to live up to the high standards we always bang on about

 

[enfieldspares]

Vintage guns have become obsolete not banned

For the lead cartridges. For the lead shot. For the plastic wads. Obsolescence through no longer being able to be used as their ammunition is prohibited = a "de facto" ban.

And of course nobody yet at BASC et al seems has talked about lead (lead stynphnate) in shotgun cartridge primers...

 

[Sea trout]

well the ban is voluntary, you are not being prohibited. If in 5 years lead ammunition is impossible to get hold of then unless you are willing to use bismuth then i would suggest your old gun has become obsolete.

funnily enough, BASC has a pretty weak dog in this fight, the future reallyrests on the decisions of cartridge manufacturers. They will also respond to market demand so lets see what they choose to do.
I will be continuing with steel ad it works!

 

[25 Sharps]

BASC rhymes with cant be asked.

BRITISH ANTI SHOOTING CORPORATION

 

[25 Sharps]

well the ban is voluntary, you are not being prohibited. If in 5 years lead ammunition is impossible to get hold of then unless you are willing to use bismuth then i would suggest your old gun has become obsolete.

funnily enough, BASC has a pretty weak dog in this fight, the future reallyrests on the decisions of cartridge manufacturers. They will also respond to market demand so lets see what they choose to do.
I will be continuing with steel ad it works!

It paves the way for a legal ban, if the politicians decide to ban lead and the 8 biggest org's have rubber stamped it then there is nothing to stop them.

As for steel do you shoot 9 mm or .410 or 28b for that matter?? The best way to protect shooting is to get as many people into the sport as possible, like many I cut my teeth on a 12B baikal, not steel proofed and choked at 1/2 & full. you are removing the cheap route for many people to try the sport so less people will enter.

As for rifle bullets, anything other than for deer, so vermin calibres, .22 and air rifle, are very poor