Basc voluntary lead ban

[levigsp]

I have a number of things to state. I know lead is poison, but we have been sold down the river and made scapegoats as usual. Why have none of you done something about the lead going into the environment by industry? shooting uses a tiny % compare to one shipyard in Poland dumping tonnes of shot into the water. Then there is the lethality of Steel, I am in the fortunate position to have seen countless thousands of steel and lead loads fired at live birds both here and abroad and I assure you that the Bird orgs will not be happy finding dead and dying birds all over the countryside!! I will explain that I have watched countless duck and geese fly away after being hit with steel, 24-1 compared to lead, these birds often land miles away and sit for hours or days before they bleed out! unless wing bones are broken a lot get away. Then there is the fact the UK wish to grow more trees!, what for if its got steel imbedded its useless, again I will explain. Steel shot is Iron, modern machinery blades hitting that steel, whether that Chain, Band, Circular saw matters not, will brake endangering peoples lives, Sweden etc who use a lot of our soft woods WILL stop. Hardwoods like Oak will no longer be sort after as the will be blackened of greyed the steel, only need on or two pellets in a growing tree. Then there is the fact that its magnetic, the first person to go for an MRI scan will take the NHS through the courts! then what! its only been luck up to now. Why do you think countries like Norway reinstated lead shot? Need I go on. NOW once lead is banned and the above problems occur, what happens, well I can tell you, steel shot gets banned! then the hunters in the UK have effectively been banned, as is the want of the various green brigades. Then the farmers can do what they are great at, poison everything they don't want, don't believe me, check the Netherlands can poison the geese The BASC, CSA etc etc should hang their heads in shame, but they wont, they are all sitting pretty on our payments.

 

[Miki]

https://www.sacs.org.uk/media/uploads/cat-252/sacs-lead-shot-and-plastic-statement.pdf

I do like Alex's wordsmithery ...

 

[Mick Miller]

I do like Alex's wordsmithery ...

Agreed.

 

[jer]

So all those organisations can come together to as they see it preempt some enforced legislation and whether or not they have taken the right step is yet to be seen, there MAY be a silver lining to this cloud IF they move forward as one voice and act together to fight against the many other issues and injustices our sports are faced with. For too long many of us have been calling for our representative organisations to put aside their differences and come together to stand up for us all whenever it is needed and we have been disappointed, is this a turning point where going forward will see a unified and robust defense of our interests or are they just happy to come together when it involves bending over? Having given in on this one I sincerely hope they will collectively grow a pair and start fighting for their members in future.

 

[Island]

And you sir ! Long live basc( don’t let the truth and honesty get in the way )

Indeed.

Let us not allow "truth and honesty" (the majority countryside organisations have asked their members to abide by a voluntary moratorium on the use of lead and single-use plastics) get in the way of sensationalism and indignation (BASC have announced a lead ban).

Your continued insistence on bringing this back to BASC when presented with the fact that this move is pretty much universally endorsed by ALL the organisations is reminiscent of a child sticking their fingers in their ears and repeatedly chanting "you're a BASC member, you're a BASC member..." To be quite frank, it is somewhat pathetic.

What we are faced with here is a potentially rather major step-change in the shooting of game in the UK, what you insist on returning to is your quite obviously pathological hatred of ONE particular countryside organisation.

 

[AN DU RU FOX]

I very much doubt it, they have come together to protect their cash cow and to seem to be doing the right thing (enviromentally). pity they couldnt all shout with the same voice over the ten year rubbish and mods and the one they want us to forget about the quacks/police. and i dont just mean basc its a disgrace from them all.

 

[Roestalker39]

Indeed.

Let us not allow "truth and honesty" (the majority countryside organisations have asked their members to abide by a voluntary moratorium on the use of lead and single-use plastics) get in the way of sensationalism and indignation (BASC have announced a lead ban).

Your continued insistence on bringing this back to BASC when presented with the fact that this move is pretty much universally endorsed by ALL the organisations is reminiscent of a child sticking their fingers in their ears and repeatedly chanting "you're a BASC member, you're a BASC member..." To be quite frank, it is somewhat pathetic.

What we are faced with here is a potentially rather major step-change in the shooting of game in the UK, what you insist on returning to is your quite obviously pathological hatred of ONE particular countryside organisation.

Ah you see that’s kind of where your little arguments falls down , I’m not for a moment suggesting that all orgs haven’t let us down . What I’m saying is basc does so with astounding regularity , much to the delight of its members .....

 

[kes]

I believe there are two reasons this joint statement was prepared,
1. It deflects criticism from those who are members of 1/2 organisations.
2. They know they are going to take a membership hit and look to minimise it.

The predictability is surprising, rather more so than the lack of evidence for this change that will cost shooting its older guns at higher values and per shot. It wont matter if you are invited to shoot and don't pay a rent or for gamebirds.

How many years has lead been a staple ?
Do the battlefields of Europe produce less crops ?
Does Norway not check its scientific facts before pronouncing lead safe for shooting and reversing a ban?
Where is the evidence of damage to the Environment / people who eat game/ ducks on shot flight ponds ?
Surely all these useless people who are now pandering to environmentalists who themselves have no evidence are aware of the damage this will cause to shooting?

Cheap alternatives to lead are mentioned - anyone know of one with confirmed lethality at lead levels or better that are cheaper?
What do cartridge manufacturers contribute to shooting organisations - I suppose there is no connection.

I don't care about reusable plastic cases going, despite the fact that many (too few) were reloaded - I have always liked paper - its wildfowling and clay shooting which will catch the plastics ban, in the reliability of cases made with paper. How many wildfowlers religeously take their cases home ? These people LOVE their marshes. Lead, trees and clay grounds ?
I reckon its back to brass for all forms of shooting but hevi - shot is still expensive - stalking is less affected by this proposal butyou have to ask yourself - was it even considered ?

 

[Pedro]

We're all doooomed!

 

[Apthorpe]

Having read the statement put out and the associated information, I have learned some things:
1. Despite the consensus of expert opinion for years having been that steel shot is not safe to use in my gun, it has now magically become safe to use even with full choke.
2. The safety of using steel shot in traditional or older guns has been proven because someone fired 1000 24g steel cartridges through one without damaging it. Nobody would ever use 24g steel cartridges on game and 1000 cartridges is a fraction of the expected lifetime of a shotgun.
3. The use of steel is fine in nitro-proofed guns. I will need to use size 3 shot, but I won't need a heavier load because the pattern is alleged to be tighter; however, I should also open up the chokes because the pattern is tighter. Therefore I will need a heavier load, and the gun isn't proofed for it. So in effect, steel cannot be used to achieve the same effect in a traditional gun safely.
4. BASC has for years and even last week, published that their policy is and would remain, no changes to lead ammunition in the absence of new scientific evidence. There has been no change in scientific evidence.

 

[enfieldspares]

The CPSA website now says this:

The main game-shooting organisations in the UK (BASC, CA, CLA, GWCT, NGO, BGA, and MA) have today released a statement encouraging a voluntary move away from lead shot and single use plastics for game shooting with shotguns. The transition will happen gradually over the next five years. This decision is being taken due to recent legislation discussions in Europe that would see lead banned from consumer products, including game meat. Some UK supermarkets are already refusing to accept game that has been shot with lead, and the European market also buys a large proportion of UK game.

We at the CPSA have been involved in the discussions with the game-shooting organisations and whilst we support their decision to voluntarily remove lead from their sport, this will have no effect on clay-target shooting.

To read the joint statement from the game shooting organisations regarding this announcement, see the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust's website here, and a Q&A factsheet here.

I have spoken to them and they have said that they will raise the matter at their CEO level.

 

[Island]

Ah you see that’s kind of where your little arguments falls down , I’m not for a moment suggesting that all orgs haven’t let us down . What I’m saying is basc does so with astounding regularity , much to the delight of its members .....

And yet you titled your thread "Basc voluntary lead ban" (sic)..........?

 

[Roestalker39]

And yet you titled your thread "Basc voluntary lead ban" (sic)..........?

Would it make you happier if I re- titled it?

 

[Big_Sparky]

We're all doooomed!

I hope you used the appropriate accent when you typed that!!

 

[enfieldspares]

Oh! CPSA now says this:

We at the CPSA have been involved in the discussions with the game-shooting organisations and whilst we understand their decision to voluntarily remove lead from their sport, this will have no effect on clay-target shooting.

Whereas earlier it was this:

We at the CPSA have been involved in the discussions with the game-shooting organisations and whilst we support their decision to voluntarily remove lead from their sport, this will have no effect on clay-target shooting.

 

[User00025]

There is also a conspicuous lack of comments about the fact that the statement is jointly issued by the GWCT, the BGA, the CA, the CLA, the Moorland Association, the NGO, Scottish and Land Estates and SACS..........but I suppose that bringing that up would somewhat blunt the trendy anti-BASC sentiment.

The wilful misinterpretation of this statement is almost painful to read. "BASC have agreed a ban" - no they haven't. Our COLLECTIVE countryside organisations have requested from their members a voluntary moratorium on the use of lead and single-use plastics. Something that WILL happen eventually, no matter how much the collected members of online shooting forums cry about it. This, I suspect, is something that everyone is patently aware of, but chooses to ignore so that they can have a good online moan. The fact that the organisations are jumping ahead of the game, and in doing so attempting to show the shooting fraternity in a good light to the general public (who couldn't give a tinker's cuss about the actual science behind it all), is irrelevant to those that will use any stick to beat a particular organisation.

I stalk, I shoot driven and walked-up game, I flight and roost pigeons, I flight geese and ducks, I coach people in the use of shotguns, I am actively involved in the organisation and hosting of driven shoots A voluntary moratorium on lead, whilst inconvenient, is hardly going to stop me undertaking my hobbies. When demand for lead ammunition falls the manufacturers will VERY quickly fill the gaps with ever increasingly efficient alternatives. That is, quite simply, how businesses work. If they don't, they will not survive.

I shall now sit back and await the responses which ignore the actual body of my post, and accuse me of being "nothing but a pro-BASC lackey". I even have a list of those that I am expecting pass judgement first.....

Almost written as a BASC employee. However I am not a critic of BASC, I have for many, many years thought it to be a useless cash cow after knowing a couple of high ranking employees and therefore have no need for further criticism.
You will find from my posts that I am somewhat annoyed with the NGO for signing up to this. I am one of their very early members but will not be renewing. I will take private insurance because I no longer believe in supporting any shooting organisation purporting to be working for its members and not standing firm on defence eg Med certs.

 

[Big_Sparky]

On a slightly more serious note and, in case anyone bites my head off, this is just me thinking out loud....

You could argue that the various Shootings Organisations are attempting to guarantee the use of lead for the next five years rather than impose or encourage a voluntary ban. The way I’ve read all the info I’ve received from SACS this morning is they believe a ban is inevitable at some point and this way at least we’ve all got five years to get out in front of it? I suppose, assuming the Powers that Be actually accept this five year proposal, that it also gives us, as members, time to contact the Organisations and request/demand/hope they actually use the time to try and defend against any coming ban.

With all legal arguments someone is usually making a (often financially motivated) decision as to the benefit of throwing good time and money at an unwinnable war.

Just a few thoughts! Prior to being a jolly wagon driver I spent far too long in various “management” roles so apologies if I sound like I’m trying to defend “The Man”

 

[enfieldspares]

You could argue that the various Shootings Organisations are attempting to guarantee the use of lead for the next five years rather than impose or encourage a voluntary ban. The way I’ve read all the info I’ve received from SACS this morning is they believe a ban is inevitable at some point .

Whose legislation? From an EU we've just left? Or from a Tory Government with a majority of eighty? It's BS! And don't forget those Tory MPs getting days out at Catton Hall? Surely shooting is safe in their hands?

 

[Big_Sparky]

Whose legislation? From an EU we've just left? Or from a Tory Government with a majority of eighty? It's BS! And don't forget those Tory MPs getting days out at Catton Hall? Surely shooting is safe in their hands?

I’m not sure how tongue in cheek or otherwise that comment is - but, certainly under the leadership of Mr Johnson, I’d argue that the current Conservative Government will blow like chaff in the wind of whatever the assumed majority of public opinion is simply to remain in power for as long as possible. For the avoidance of doubt I don’t mean actual public opinion but whatever Mr Cummings decides is public opinion (but that’s all possibly another debate for another thread on another day)

 

[Big_Sparky]

And of course, as I’d typed my reply to your unedited post, if the EU makes any changes we’d be bound by them (without redress) until the end of this year at the earliest.