BMH crimes

[KevinF]

This information is free - which probably reflects its true worth

Interesting conversation with the BMH Society chaps at the gundog tent, Game Fair, this morning.

Gene pool in the UK was tiny but is growing slowly as people import. Some lines are KC registered, others not. Some early to the UK lines have well-known aggression issues and greed has driven significant breeding of hideously incompatible couples including brother/sister. Eye and hip problems and even, rarely, fitting, have surfaced in some lines - and still people have bred. BMH have also been bred with Labs, and bred for shorter legs than the standard.

However, quarantine regs change in January 2012 from six months to 15 weeks, so it will will now be possible to bring a pup in and stand a good chance of bonding and training, thus avoiding - assuming a sensible, informed purchase - falling foul of the money-grabbing unethical shysters that, sadly, infect the dog world.

 

[6pointer]

Kevin i have not seen to many BMH,s mate so can only comment on the 12 or so i have seen and they all were very soft indeed. The chap shaun i got mine from brought the mother to see me and i payed with here and roughed her up and all i can say is she was a doll no sign of aggression. I am not to sure about the breeding but she is an import and there is no imbreeding in her lines. Her legs are not long but with a small heal she would look good . I hope i am not the only one to believe this but if we use our dogs to find deer regulary. Then there is no problems,The biggest problem i see is the BMH society its self setting up rules that will only hold the breed back. If you have a good dog and it is a PROVEN WORKER. then it should be bred off you owe it to the breed. If you have a dog and its a bag of shite and only finds one or two deer a year then get its tubes tied. Folling cold blood from sheep cows for 1000,s of yards dont impress me much (SHANIA TWANE 1997 ) It might also be a good idea if any one wants a puppy from these breeds to go out with the owner and watch them working there dogs.
please remeber importing is not all it seems i rremeber the HWV getting sent to America from here and christ every sh it pup born would be sent there the best were kept back.

 

[KevinF]

...The biggest problem i see is the BMH society its self setting up rules that will only hold the breed back.

Davie -

Which rules would they be?

 

[6pointer]

Not to breed from a dog that is atleast three years old not to breed from a dog that has not passed a certain test they must be hip scored eye tested etc etc . Now if some of the regulations were not to breed off a dog that was not a hundred % worker we might get some were.

 

[Jagare]

So 6p you would breed from your dog that in your own words will only follow a hot scent and think its a dog worthy of breeding from. Nothing wrong with getting your dog to follow a 1000 mtr cold blood trail, cow blood or deer blood. Doing that is called training.
Any fool can get a dog to track a hot trail. Its obvious that the a BMH is wasted on you as you'll never get a develop a fraction of your dogs potential.
Can't wait for your ad for BMH pups from a good working line. Skitsnack

 

[sikamalc]

This information is free - which probably reflects its true worth

Interesting conversation with the BMH Society chaps at the gundog tent, Game Fair, this morning.

Gene pool in the UK was tiny but is growing slowly as people import. Some lines are KC registered, others not. Some early to the UK lines have well-known aggression issues and greed has driven significant breeding of hideously incompatible couples including brother/sister. Eye and hip problems and even, rarely, fitting, have surfaced in some lines - and still people have bred. BMH have also been bred with Labs, and bred for shorter legs than the standard.

However, quarantine regs change in January 2012 from six months to 15 weeks, so it will will now be possible to bring a pup in and stand a good chance of bonding and training, thus avoiding - assuming a sensible, informed purchase - falling foul of the money-grabbing unethical shysters that, sadly, infect the dog world.

The BMH club was only set up about 4 years ago and the BMH breed was only recognised by the kennel club about 5 years ago. Infact the litter I bought Todd from was one of the first to be registered by the KC.

BMH have been in the country sometime but it is only recently that they have started to be sought after. The lines that are bred by good reputable breeders/stalkers are generally very good as they have been bought into the UK.

I have seen a fair few Bavs and have never seen aggression in any of them. I do know that those people who cross bred have produced problem dogs. It is not that hard to get a good dog providing you use the right breeder, you may have to wait though

Training a BMH is not straight forward, but I can say the rewards out way the frustration at times, and patience as they take about 2 years to come into their own.

They are bred for working not pets, but the affection they show as a breed is remarkable.

Sikamalc

 

[6pointer]

Your right Jagare the breed is waisted on me mate and i will be such a draw on its future development . I wish my dog would find a six week old dead cow at the end of a 1000 mtr trail christ i could get that bit of paper that would allow me to breed my dog under the society,s rule,s . Your right any one can get a dog to find a newly shot deer so why not a bmh .But then again why well because they might just be good at that as well no one rushing to give a certificate for that. But as a deer dog there is more requirment in my opinion than following old blood out of the freezer. My dogs need to work from the time they leave the car finding deer is only one part of the jigsaw and finding a wounded beast before it suffers is one of my top priority,s. But for my BMH i might now leave it to die slowly for a few days so i can prove she is made of the correct stuff.Or i could always enter her in a trail and get her to follow some old chap with his old well used washing up liquid bottle that will simulate the diying deer with the extra wee squerts for the blood beds. We could have a new adverts follows blood filled sweaty socks and will bark at taxidermy deer at the end. Garanteed to work .

 

[KevinF]

Davie -

As far as I can see from the leaflet I have on my desk here, the BMH Society's Ethics list is short and sensible, aiming to uphold animal welfare, health and breed quality, while also providing some safeguards to potential owners.

You are in agreement with the BMH Society over the principle that a proven working ability is a 'must.' You are happy with an informal test; they prefer a formal test.

The 'Do not breed from a bitch that is less than two and a half years old' element of the BMH Society's ethics is elemental and, as far as I can see, a suggestion common to many breed societies.

And are you really saying that inbreeding and cross-breeding are desirable, and that hip scoring is undesirable?

 

[Jagare]

6p i think you have a phobia about training a dog properly. What has tracking a dead cow and all your other ramblings got to do with anything. Would you take a Spaniel or a lab out pheasant or even rough shooting when it was 12 weeks old? I dought it. So why take a young dog out with you stalking. Train it to track first. Simple.
If i was going to buy a pup from you how are you going to show me what it can do. Will you show me how its parents can find a dead deer that you shot an hour ago and that lays dead in some bracken 50mtrs away. Big deal .
You talk about not wanting to let a deer suffer and leaving it laying for several hours and that is why you have the dog with you. Do you wound that many? Or is it the truth that your dog really only finds deer that you have shot and you could have found your self if you had any field craft.
At least i know that when I'm called out to track a 12hour old trail with my dog there is a goog chance he will find the animal.

ALSO THERE IS NO NEED TO PM ME WITH THE SAME DRIVEL WRITEN IN CAPITAL LETTERS THAT YOU POST ON OPEN FORUM. YOU REALLY DO TALK UNMITIGATED CRAP.

 

[Jagare]

Kevin, the rules of the BMH Society are the same as any work dog breed club here in Sweden. I let a chap in Norway use my cocker dog as a stud dog he was Hip and eye scored before he was used. I know many will say that hip problems are very rare in spaniels and that is true, but by breeding from dogs that are hip and eye scored there is much less chance that problems will arise in the future.
There were back problems in teckles here years ago. The Teckle club asked to be informed of all teckles with back problems and advised people not to breed from them. The
incidence of back problems has been greatly reduced over the years.
The BMH society guidelines are just commonsense, something lacking in a few dog owner, breeds out there.

 

[KevinF]

Jagare -

I am 100% with your sentiments. Thankfully, we are not alone.

One of the chaps on the BMH stand at the Game Fair this weekend owned a bitch. He had bought her in good faith but, he confessed, some degree of ignorance, and when he discovered that she was from a line that has known 'behavioural' issues, he had her spayed.

 

[6pointer]

First of all you are quite correct i do let my dog find deer that with a wee bit off effort and time i could find my self (BUT HE IS BETER THAN ME AT IT SO WHY HAVE A DOG AND BARK) . I also do not wound that many to really need a stand alone tracking dog (BUT I WANTED A BMH). Now i would say that 90 % of deer stalkers will be the same. There is no shot gun drives here for boar or roe so a carefully selected shot is the norm not many follow ups this side of the water. Now i do not need a tracking dog, i need a dog that can track when required that will walk to heal off the lead and will mark deer in front of me should i not see them because of cover. Now if you think that the BMH is a stand alone tracker and not up to the job then think again because it will need to do more than that to make it as a stalking dog in this country If mine will not do all the above it will not last very long. Now if the BMH SOCIETY dont like it thats tough i am sure that when the working terriers hounds and gun dogs went across to europe many years ago the breed clubs from this side of the pond would have been just a tad upset to see what happend to there dogs. But we need to use the dogs for our own purpose or we will have no need for the dog at all.!
If i ever sell a pup you will be assured that the mother and farther will be worked to a very high standard. I have only been asked to track cold sents a few time in the passed and my HWV was more than up to the job as are my friends terriers and myother mates lab.
Kevin i agree 100% on behaviour problem no mater what breed it should not be tollerated.

NORMALY FOUND WITH DAYGLOW ORANGE HARNESS AND 50 MTR LEAD

Just for the posing Ria at 5 months

 

[Gazza]

I think that 6p does raise a debatable point. I have a BMH that is more than capable of successfully tracking old tracks but not once in a practical situation have I had to use these powers. The dog will indicate the presence of unseen deer and if I do happen to have a mishap he will locate the wounded/normally dead deer but I certainly will not be hanging about 12 plus hours after the mishap just so that he can prove that he can follow a cold trail. Now if I came to the conclusion that I had no use for the dog's ability to cold track and did not develop this side of the dog am I really not a worthy owner of a BMH, can I not conclude that my dog is a working dog. On the other hand I can see the side which says that this breed of dog has been specifically developed over generations to be an expert in cold tracking, we must keep that ability at the fore and only breed from stock that can be proved to possess that ability.

 

[Jason]

Jagare -

One of the chaps on the BMH stand at the Game Fair this weekend owned a bitch. He had bought her in good faith but, he confessed, some degree of ignorance, and when he discovered that she was from a line that has known 'behavioural' issues, he had her spayed.

Hi KevinF, The Chap you maybe referring to is me. Just to set the record straight, we did a lot of research into BHM's before we bought our Bitch. We spent over a year researching the bread before going ahead and buying her, furthermore it took a lot of time over making the decision to spay her, as she has an excellent temperament, good nose and passed her aptitude test with flying colours and currently working towards the level 1 test.

The reason why I had her spayed was that I made a conscious decision that as I haven’t got any experience of breeding dog’s and didn’t want any accidents either from my bitch being accidentally covered by another random BMH or worst still an accident via a dog from another breed I thought it best that she be spayed. It’s a shame really as I say she’s a pleasure to work and train plus has a very kind temperament.

Jason

 

[barongcw]

By God, this forum is fun.
I have not enjoyed myself so much for a long time.

Obviously Jagare and others are right. It is better to have a trained dog with a pedigree from working parents than a ? from ?.
No sensible person could dispute this.
But I have a helpful suggestion for 6pointer. As he continues to believe that finding deer is the only criteria needed in his dogs I suggest he tracks a "kirchgang". This is following the tracks of an unwounded deer for a mile or so when the track is at least 4 hours old.
We will then see if his hound is better than a properly trained one.
I should add that the Kirchgang method was used to train HS's up to 12 months before the tracking shoe was invented. It is a little laborious to put it mildly.

 

[sikamalc]

Jagare -

I am 100% with your sentiments. Thankfully, we are not alone.

One of the chaps on the BMH stand at the Game Fair this weekend owned a bitch. He had bought her in good faith but, he confessed, some degree of ignorance, and when he discovered that she was from a line that has known 'behavioural' issues, he had her spayed.

Well finding the right dog no matter what breed you choose is always a bit of a worry. BMH are not a straight forward dog to train and own, and it took me two years of research and searching to find a litter of pups and that was over 5 years ago when I picked Todd up, so here I am just over 7 years on!!

I do not wish to pour cold water on the level of trials that BMH can achieve, which is mind blowing to say the least at times. However I wanted a companion in the field, I wanted a good dog which could scent deer before I saw them, I wanted a deer dog that could back me up when taking clients out (believe me they do come in handy) and find and hold/bay a wounded deer, I wanted a dog that could sit and not move when waiting for deer, I wanted a dog that thinks deer as soon as he is out.

Maybe I got lucky! Todd forfills all of this and more at times, what I do not need is a piece of paper to prove this, and in some respects I can see where 6 pointer is coming from. I am sure there are a few on this site who have watched Todd work will testify to this, and I know one American who is coming back this year to stalk in the highlands with me, just to watch Todd work and find him another Sika Stag. Todd last year took me onto two stags in a week without us knowing they were there chuffed, I should bloody say so

 

[6pointer]

Baron first of all my puppy is 5 months old there would be no chance i would ever try and say she is even close to trained i would also ask you to read my post i said i require more than a tracking dog that is only one eliment to a deer stalkers dog. Also why the f would i want to follow a unwounded deer for a mile()IF MY DOG DID THAT I WOULD KICK ITS ASS). Now lets get our facts correct there are many breeds used for deer stalking terriers christ god forbid one should ever be allowed to work above ground. Gsp Struth imagine useing a bird dog to find deer what a waist of a good dog .gwp Imaganice putting one of these dogs on a harness and lead christ they were bred to run free and hunt aloan ETC ETC. Stop trying to make the breed somthing it aint because if all it is good for is tracking deer then it is doomed in this country to following cold crap dried blood. PS mAY I SAY WHEN I TRAINED MY DOG TO RETRIEVE BIRDS I DID NOT THROW IT DOMESTICATED CHICKENS.
I had not seen your post Malc now i agree with that post and ask me who i would buy my next pup off should i need one it would be some one like him or Gazza that work there dogs to deer to or three times aweek.Not some one who hangs on to a long lead following god know what to a bit of skin.Gets a bit of paper and tells me there dog works .

DONT YOU JUST LOVE FORUMS

 

[Jagare]

There is nothing wrong with finding a deer you have shot on a hot track. Lets face it 99% of tracking is just that. Of course Uk tracking will evolve into its own form just like Swedish tracking has evolved to cover the game we hunt and the way we hunt.
Lets face it UK stalking has evolved into its own model that has taken bits from other countries ways and traditions to make it its own.
The UK do's not have so many Rta's to follow up like we do in Scandinavia where its compulsory to report Rta's. Nearly 50000 call outs for tracking last year if my memory serves me right. Many of these tracks would be cold tracks many hours old.
My point is why have a tracking dog that has not been trained to its full potenial. If you only have to track a cold track a couple of times in the dogs life then the training has been worth doing.
1 lost deer is a lost deer to many.
All this drivel spouted by 6p obout bits of paper and the way a dogs is trained is just ignorance on his part about how you TRAIN a dog to a reasonable level.

 

[KevinF]

Hi KevinF, The Chap you maybe referring to is me. Just to set the record straight..ame really as I say she’s a pleasure to work and train plus has a very kind temperament.Jason

Jason -

If I have misrepresented your journey please accept my apologies. It was an honest mistake caused by (a) old age and (b) the Game Fair being a bit of a full-on blur.

Nontheless, I again salute your integrity in not wishing to be party to an unwanted or possibly unwise pairing. As you will have gathered from the thrust of my posts, what impressed me greatly was that all on the BMH stand clearly have the long-term interests of the breed at heart and are keen not to repeat the mistakes that those involved with other newly-popular breeds have made in recent times.

 

[barongcw]

Certainly I agree with you that Forums are fun.

I ask from my dogs that they track what I want them to track and that they certainly do not change over to another deer. The best, most laborious way of TEACHING them to do that is the Kirchgang I described. Once they can do that well anything else is a doddle.

The tracking breeds are not bred to wind deer. But they have a nose so they can do that. They are bred and their training is at such a level (but not yet in the UK) that they can find deer other dogs can not. Without there being any blood.

It looks to me that you would be much better served with a breed like Deutsche Draadhaar than a BS or HS. The draadhaar can wind live and find most dead deer and is tough enough to drag them down.

After all you do not need a Formula 1 car to go shopping.

And to finish; the hound that is constantly trained to "hang on a long lead following god knows what", a splendid phrase, will find the tracking of a wounded deer a piece of cake.

That is of course if the trainer knows what he is doing and that is not always the case.

The bit of paper is only to assure me that my hound will not die on me of epilepsy or has to be pensioned of because of HD or has a caracter fault that can be easily avoided by knowing its parentage.

As for the breed being doomed in this country, I think they have a splendid future.

Over the weekend I tracked 2 wounded deer shot by others. Because the hound is reasonably trained and at 7 years old got plenty of experience they were in the bag without any problem. I never ever bothered to put on a lead on but ambled behind. I get away with that because when I choose her after carefully looking at her pedigree I noticed ancestors who are very quiet dogs and not raving lunatics that you can also find in the breed.