Entry/exit with copper bulletsw

Red staggie at circa 185m.
High neck shot whilst facing away, folded on the spot.
Powdered at least one vertebra, to the point that I took the head off there.
Only downside was having to pick the bone shards out of the neck end.
7mm 120gr ttsx velocity at contact circa 2500 = 2550 fps.
Not much visible in the photo, apart from the subtly wrong angle of the neck.2C0BBE64-7095-4F0E-ABD0-56D10F6EF6AA.webp
 
.270, Sako Powerhead II 110g factory ammo. Bang, flop evey time so far.

Much less meat damage than the 130g lead ammo a previously used
 
I started my non lead journey a couple of years ago, having a 6.5x55 made with the intention of shooting 100-120g. I settled on a 100gn TTSX for general deer/vermin duties. In general I have only positive things to say, a couple of slightly odd results in amongst many very positive ones. A petal fragmenting on a H/L shot hind and puncturing the rumen is a bad result, but in fairness I’ve had similar with lead. I generally get an exit, even on a large quartering stag I got an exit, albeit usually quite neat wee exits that don’t tend to generate a huge blood trail. Pic is of a small beast at over 200m and shows the kind of exit, he only took a couple of steps. MV 3300fps, impact around 2600fps. I have recently bought a 308 and sourced a 130 TTSX round that is equally as effective with better blood trails.982EFDBE-15B6-48BD-97A3-8F6B569B14E7.jpeg
 
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While real world data is good, it tends to be a bit anecdotal -"it worked great bang flop" versus "penciled right through and away he ran" Both happen. The problem with this sort of question is that it would need thousands of shots to be compared from lead and copper bullets in roughly similar situations with flight distances accurately measured. What we can go on is the data from ballistic gel where it seems that copper penetrates more and makes smaller temporary and permanent wound channels. Copper releases energy slower than most lead bullets. How much measurable real world impact does this have is beyond the an individual's ability to answer in a way that clearly proves something to those who disagree.

What would be great would be if somone with no dog in the fight did proper research, not a bullet maker or a government funded body. BASC could have taken the lead on this instead of just jumping to toe the line. They could have got several hundred regular stalkers to use only lead one year and only copper the next and record every hit, every lost deer and measure every flight distance, then looked at the macro data. They could have also looked at the data for prefragmented tin, then chosen whether or not to advocate going lead free. Instead BASC has toed the line, not led the way. This is not what we need from a body that represents us, they are making an accomodation to avoid rustling feathers with politicians before they know if it is a good idea.

We are arguing about what are our hunches and our experience says when it comes to lead free and this is the problem. If we had hard data, we could relax because the truth would be in front of us and we could move on with confidence.
 
While real world data is good, it tends to be a bit anecdotal -"it worked great bang flop" versus "penciled right through and away he ran" Both happen. The problem with this sort of question is that it would need thousands of shots to be compared from lead and copper bullets in roughly similar situations with flight distances accurately measured. What we can go on is the data from ballistic gel where it seems that copper penetrates more and makes smaller temporary and permanent wound channels. Copper releases energy slower than most lead bullets. How much measurable real world impact does this have is beyond the an individual's ability to answer in a way that clearly proves something to those who disagree.

What would be great would be if somone with no dog in the fight did proper research, not a bullet maker or a government funded body. BASC could have taken the lead on this instead of just jumping to toe the line. They could have got several hundred regular stalkers to use only lead one year and only copper the next and record every hit, every lost deer and measure every flight distance, then looked at the macro data. They could have also looked at the data for prefragmented tin, then chosen whether or not to advocate going lead free. Instead BASC has toed the line, not led the way. This is not what we need from a body that represents us, they are making an accomodation to avoid rustling feathers with politicians before they know if it is a good idea.

We are arguing about what are our hunches and our experience says when it comes to lead free and this is the problem. If we had hard data, we could relax because the truth would be in front of us and we could move on with confidence.
But the decision to go lead free has nothing to do with deciding whether it works or not. It's to do with lead being poisonous. The same reason why we have moved away from coal fired power stations and China haven't! We care, China don't! Coal still works just fine though!
 
But the decision to go lead free has nothing to do with deciding whether it works or not. It's to do with lead being poisonous. The same reason why we have moved away from coal fired power stations and China haven't! We care, China don't! Coal still works just fine though!
Good point but the reason that I'm shifting to copper is because its just better. With shotgun cartridges I'm unconvinced about the merits of steel vs lead, I 'd hope that at some point the scientists will come up with a ballistically superior synthetic substance, in the meantime I'm going to use Bismuth once my lead cartridges are used up.
 
But cost twice as much, which is a joke and a rip off in my opinion. And lead is far better and always will be, with a copper jacket wrapped around it :)
😂😂 cost is irrelevant
While real world data is good, it tends to be a bit anecdotal -"it worked great bang flop" versus "penciled right through and away he ran" Both happen. The problem with this sort of question is that it would need thousands of shots to be compared from lead and copper bullets in roughly similar situations with flight distances accurately measured. What we can go on is the data from ballistic gel where it seems that copper penetrates more and makes smaller temporary and permanent wound channels. Copper releases energy slower than most lead bullets. How much measurable real world impact does this have is beyond the an individual's ability to answer in a way that clearly proves something to those who disagree.

What would be great would be if somone with no dog in the fight did proper research, not a bullet maker or a government funded body. BASC could have taken the lead on this instead of just jumping to toe the line. They could have got several hundred regular stalkers to use only lead one year and only copper the next and record every hit, every lost deer and measure every flight distance, then looked at the macro data. They could have also looked at the data for prefragmented tin, then chosen whether or not to advocate going lead free. Instead BASC has toed the line, not led the way. This is not what we need from a body that represents us, they are making an accomodation to avoid rustling feathers with politicians before they know if it is a good idea.

We are arguing about what are our hunches and our experience says when it comes to lead free and this is the problem. If we had hard data, we could relax because the truth would be in front of us and we could move on with confidence.
i moved on with confidence over a decade ago!

lead ban or not its not going to affect me in the slightest, by all means argue amongst yourselves, i made my bed and i’ll happily lie in it.

on many more than one occasion i have offered my knowledge on the subject, some listened and have made the move to copper and some have not.

Crack on and take which ever path you wish, im done on the subject.
 
.243 100 yards, Fox 80 grain copper home load around 3100' fps.
Ran about 50 yards.
Regarding cost of bullets, I reload, so it is cheaper, but even so, are some people that tight that they won't pay £3-£4 for a factory cartridge? ;)
20210805_205730.jpg
 
I use Sako powerhead in my .270. Never any issues. Beasts go straight down. Used anywhere from 100yds out to 250yds. Really impressed with this ammo since going to copper full time.
I have the same view of the Powerhead for my .308, very happy with the results on red and reduced meat damage compared to the .270 lead (from my experience).
 
While real world data is good, it tends to be a bit anecdotal -"it worked great bang flop" versus "penciled right through and away he ran" Both happen. The problem with this sort of question is that it would need thousands of shots to be compared from lead and copper bullets in roughly similar situations with flight distances accurately measured. What we can go on is the data from ballistic gel where it seems that copper penetrates more and makes smaller temporary and permanent wound channels. Copper releases energy slower than most lead bullets. How much measurable real world impact does this have is beyond the an individual's ability to answer in a way that clearly proves something to those who disagree.

What would be great would be if somone with no dog in the fight did proper research, not a bullet maker or a government funded body. BASC could have taken the lead on this instead of just jumping to toe the line. They could have got several hundred regular stalkers to use only lead one year and only copper the next and record every hit, every lost deer and measure every flight distance, then looked at the macro data. They could have also looked at the data for prefragmented tin, then chosen whether or not to advocate going lead free. Instead BASC has toed the line, not led the way. This is not what we need from a body that represents us, they are making an accomodation to avoid rustling feathers with politicians before they know if it is a good idea.

We are arguing about what are our hunches and our experience says when it comes to lead free and this is the problem. If we had hard data, we could relax because the truth would be in front of us and we could move on with confidence.
The bullet manufacturers, and those shooting lots of deer have all done their own research. Fundamentally non toxic bullets have been around for many years now, have been the go to choice for many in many different countries because they perform better on big game animals.

The biggest challenge with cup and core lead bullets is to rapid expansion and failure to penetrate, hence development of monolithics that penetrate well.

Now we have a good variety of bullets to choose from. Some like the original Barnes or the Hornady GMX are tough bullets - probably too tough for most UK / European deer.

Others such as the RWS HIT or the Fox are designed to expand at normal rifle impact velocities in European deer species. They work well.

And if you want rapid expansion, lots of blood loss, then there are fragmenting partition type bullets. RWS Evo Green, the Brenneke and I think Sellier & Bellot are using.

Go back three or four years there were endless discussions about failure of different types of lead bullets.

And there is not yet in the UK a legal ban on lead ammunition. So you can carry on using lead. But game dealers have chosen to only accept venison shot with non toxic bullets from the middle of 2022. That is their choice about their own business.

As for steel shot in shotguns. It works in the vast majority of guns and shooting situations. Some may have to adapt - use a different choke, or have chokes opened up, and velocities are a little different so you might have to adapt your swing - but to be honest I have found a difference between different brands of cartridges - some just seem to work better fir me than others.
 
This is a Fox 130gn .308” which I dug out of the right shoulder of a reg stag that I shot yesterday. Just over 200 metres & slightly quartered away from me, so the bullet smashed 3 left ribs, totally pulped the lungs & came to rest inside the left shoulder blade.
I will try to weigh the bullet to see how much is retained.
 

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This is a Fox 130gn .308” which I dug out of the right shoulder of a reg stag that I shot yesterday. Just over 200 metres & slightly quartered away from me, so the bullet smashed 3 left ribs, totally pulped the lungs & came to rest inside the left shoulder blade.
I will try to weigh the bullet to see how much is retained.
Interesting, that is the make & bullet weight that I am using in my 270, 7x57 and 308. Limited experience so far but the 7x57 worked very neatly on roe bucks.
 
Shot my first deer with copper on Saturday evening.

Sika pricket at 150m. 100gn Barnes TTSX with a MV of 3120 in 6.5CM.

Felt like a good shot but got no reaction to shot (other than running) and didnt get the same sort of sound as I would with lead hitting the chest cavity.
Found the shot site and saw some good chunks of Lung tissue. Not much of a blood trail, although I didnt spend too much time looking as I knew where it had entered the woods. Once in the woods spotted it quickly on the deck dead as a dodo (thanks thermal!).

Deer had ran about 30m. On looking at entry and exit I was very happy with the shot placement. Upon gralloching and inspecting found it had destroyed the top of the heart and bottom of both lungs. Small entry and a decent size exit (clipped a rib on entry and exit). Looking at both entry, exit and internal damage I couldnt tell you the difference between that and the lead bullets I had been using up until now.

As for the sound and lack of reaction, I have heard some report this can be an issue with copper, However on the odd occasion I have had the same from lead bullets, especially on Sika if they were alert, which they were this time also.

So on the whole pleased with the performance, and looking forward to drawing my own conclusions as I take more deer with them.
 
As Per post 40

Entry - left side of chest wall

IMG-0120.jpg


Exit - right side of chest wall - bullet remained in shoulder

IMG-0122.jpg
 
I'm quite surprised that you managed to find the bullets, they don't appear to have hit a bone or they would be more damaged, I might be wrong though, I haven't shot a huge number of deer but of the 100 or so I have never recovered a bullet, they have all gone clean through and that includes a few sizeable Reds, mostly with 100gn Game kings in .243 or Speer 165gn soft points in .308
They have actually hit in through the shoulder and stopped in the neck, it was the bone the stopped them. they don't seem to deform like lead.
 
This is a Fox 130gn .308” which I dug out of the right shoulder of a reg stag that I shot yesterday. Just over 200 metres & slightly quartered away from me, so the bullet smashed 3 left ribs, totally pulped the lungs & came to rest inside the left shoulder blade.
I will try to weigh the bullet to see how much is retained.
Just weighed it - 116 grains retained weight
 
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