Fac air is it worth it ?

[25 Sharps]

the right ammo for the 22lr can certainly handle shooting into the trees ( cci quiets ) 40 grain bullet with much reduced velocity / fall out range very limited ! Certainly wouldn't travel a few hundred meters its got about 30 ft lb with that 40 grain ! There are many , many different 22 LR rounds and power levels and an FAC airgun can be pretty much as powerful as 22LR at the other side of things .
My Favourite power airgun is no greater than 20 ftlb and all that really does is add a flatter trajectory over 50 yards and enough to make a clean kill within that range ( because a 12 ftlb )slightly off on angle of presentation or a slightly incorrect placement at 12 ft lb can struggle to do the job .
Indeed i tend to shoot HV 40 grain .22 lr ammo as i can far more easily shoot to 80-100 yards adding to that some if conditions are all good , i can then change my mag and walk into a barn and nock off some ferals or rats . The rifle need not be above £300 indeed the ones we keep are second hand CZ 452 models ( £150 each i paid) . in the last 20 years I have had one fault with a worn out extractor - i fixed it super fast though . Now then Airguns ? its seems to me PCP airguns sit in the safe thinking of what new fault to hit you with next time you need them most LOL! They also cost a heck of a lot more than an LR and are a swine to fault find and get parts for . Ammo? every RFD has .22LR

It would and it does, I’ve posted the ballistics chart several times before!

 

[25 Sharps]

Is that 20 ft lb limit based on the max power a springer can comfortably produce ? It seems a little arbitrary. It puts a .22 pellet trajectory somewhere below that of a sub 12 .177

I don't think exact FAC power is that important in FAC air rifles. Very few airgun quarry will benefit from the additional energy (except perhaps fox). But you may as well have the flattest trajectory you can- with whatever pellets suit the rifle. Something around 950fps seems a rough limit for pellets. Slugs can approach 1050 I believe.

So for .22 somewhere around 30-35ft lbs gives you the flattest trajectory possible.

When you can clear out a whole field of rabbits with a CF its hard returning to long careful stalks taking 35 yard shots

He just likes chatting rubbish whilst pretending to know about everything!

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

He just likes chatting rubbish whilst pretending to know about everything!

Thats a little harsh IMO

What bowland blades says makes sense to me-

The HW95 is optimised for 16 ft lbs or so. The HW80 for 20 ft lbs.

If you dislike FAC PCPs- springers are the only option- and 20ft lbs is probably the limit for a fac springer to be well behaved.

I agree with you on backdrop from 700fps 40gr bullets- care to share those ballistics?

 

[25 Sharps]

Thats a little harsh IMO

What bowland blades says makes sense to me-

The HW95 is optimised for 16 ft lbs or so. The HW80 for 20 ft lbs.

If you dislike FAC PCPs- springers are the only option- and 20ft lbs is probably the limit for a fac springer to be well behaved.

I agree with you on backdrop from 700fps 40gr bullets- care to share those ballistics?

It really isn’t, it’s a fair observation.




Still 12 ft-lb at 600 yards, slugs in an air rifle aren’t much better. If you put a slug into an FAC air rifle you are essentially turning it into a .22 as far as safety is concerned.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Still 12 ft-lb at 600 yards, slugs in an air rifle aren’t much better. If you put a slug into an FAC air rifle you are essentially turning it into a .22 as far as safety is concerned.

Totally agree re slugs.

I'm struggling with the numbers on that table- if shot at 45 degrees- how far will a 40gr bullet travel if it starts at the 700fps from a slow subsonic round? I wonder how this compares to a 1050fps round ?

 

[Rake Aboot]

Been faffing about with my new ( to me ) R10

.177 @ 20ft/lb using heavier rangemaster hunting.

Bloody lovely, fast flat and hard hitting, what’s not to like
For inside and at the caravan parks I shoot, there’s nothing better.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Been faffing about with my new ( to me ) R10

.177 @ 20ft/lb using heavier rangemaster hunting.

Bloody lovely, fast flat and hard hitting, what’s not to like
For inside and at the caravan parks I shoot, there’s nothing better.

20ft lb 177 must be super flat. Point and shoot out to 50 yards or so.

But doesn't it just pierce right through all quarry ? I get exits on squirrels and rabbits with sub 12. So are you actually putting more energy into the quarry with fac 177 ?

 

[Rake Aboot]

Yup.
You will get exits but regardless more energy in causes more damage.
A few pellets now ( Hades etc) really deform.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Yup.
You will get exits but regardless more energy in causes more damage.
A few pellets now ( Hades etc) really deform.

Ignoring deformation, Are you sure more energy causes more damage?

Say a 12 ft lb pellet enters a squirrel with 8 ft lbs and exits with 2 ft lb- that's 6 ft lb in the animal

Would a 20 ft lb pellet enter a squirrel with 15 ft lb and exit with 9 ft lbs ? Or much less- say 7 ft lbs ?

Pellet deformation is v small in soft targets. But does seem to happen slightly at FAC speeds so I guess you get that a bit.

I guess you could shoot 177 slugs around 20 ft lbs and get lovely flat trajectories with a slug that expands to around .22 size.

 

[Rake Aboot]

What makes you think it imparts less energy on the way through though ? If it hits harder it deforms more
And the fact it’s carrying X amount more energy means it’s more likely impart more into the animal regardless of exits.

 

[LarryLightFoot]

reading the thread - what would be the best well built, faultless FAC PCP air rifle to shoot a max of 100 yds
I use a Daystate wolverine 12ft pounds and its pin point accurate and has had not one problem ie faultless would fac one have the same qualities

Im thoroughly impressed with my FX Crown MK2 FAC .22 silly accurate ( if I do my bit ) and light for mooching around, bowled a squizzer over at 71yds yesterday and that was using Hades, with slugs the reach would be up at 100 in the right conditions.
I had a Daystate Pulsar Sub 12 you just couldn’t miss with that thing absolute tool .

 

[villaman]

.25 impact running at 975 fps with 33gr slug at either 80 or 110 yards can’t remember right now taken from a rabbits head

 

[Klenchblaize]

If I were purchasing new I’d get one in .25 as it seems a sensible alternative to going all the way with the even heavier .30 projectiles that would be getting too close to the safety issues of a .22 rimfire.

K

 

[guns 6br]

Wouldn't be without my theoben rapid mk2 25cal running at 40ft for pigeon and squirrels it's spot on

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

What makes you think it imparts less energy on the way through though ? If it hits harder it deforms more
And the fact it’s carrying X amount more energy means it’s more likely impart more into the animal regardless of exits.

I'm not committing either way. What makes you think it imparts more ?

Deformation is negligible with pellets. It probably does impart a little more energy through expansion alone. But ignoring deformation- I'm not sure how energy depositation works.

 

[Rake Aboot]

Well it’s simple physics really
More energy in does mean more deformation , the pellet is being pushed more so deforms more
Also more energy in can easily result in more energy imparted in the target , even if it passes through


Just think about it
If you hit a rabbit with a 12ft/lb air rifle. And then hit it with a .22 rimfire, what is likely to put more energy into the target , and cause more hydrostatic shock to the tissue in the animal ?

You need more energy to leave more energy, .

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Well it’s simple physics really
More energy in does mean more deformation , the pellet is being pushed more so deforms more
Also more energy in can easily result in more energy imparted in the target , even if it passes through


Just think about it
If you hit a rabbit with a 12ft/lb air rifle. And then hit it with a .22 rimfire, what is likely to put more energy into the target , and cause more hydrostatic shock to the tissue in the animal ?

You need more energy to leave more energy, .

I think the physics is considerably more complicated than that.

As I recognised- deformation will be greater with speed- but its still minimal. I doubt the extra speed would lead to any meaningful deformation for most pellets. Perhaps a few % with Hades.

Just how much more energy a FAC 177 pellet imparts vs sub 12 I don't know. It certainly isn't simple physics. And I suspect its considerably less than you would hope. The way the animals body would reject the external force- and how this would vary depending on the pellet speed- is way beyond my understanding.

Hydrostatic shock certainly doesn't happen at subsonic speeds.

When comparing 22LR to 12 ft lb- you are varying far too many variables. Bullet vs pellet, weight, shape, density, speed, deformation potential etc. Your comparison is meaningless.

Indeed you need more energy to leave more- but that certainly isn't the only requirement.

I could potentially envisage a slower pellet being entirely stopped in an animal- and thus the full ft lbs being absorbed- with an embedded pellet preventing the wound channel from closing up. Vs a faster pellet exiting and potentially depositing less internally. Honestly it's beyond my imagination. But I wouldn't assume it was simple physics.

 

[Squirrelbasher]

Wad cutter pellets deform, in fact .22 hobby’s flatten and don’t penetrate much with a 12ft lb rifle. It’s accuracy at distance that’s the limiting factor. I also use h&n finale match in my .177 hw100 for shooting squirrels on feeders where the range is around 25 yards and they really do deform, not like domed pellets. I haven’t tried them at longer range or at fac speeds, but I suspect that they’d likely be unreliable for those situations? It would be interesting to know how they perform at around 20ft lbs in .177 though.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Wad cutter pellets deform, in fact .22 hobby’s flatten and don’t penetrate much with a 12ft lb rifle. It’s accuracy at distance that’s the limiting factor. I also use h&n finale match in my .177 hw100 for shooting squirrels on feeders where the range is around 25 yards and they really do deform, not like domed pellets. I haven’t tried them at longer range or at fac speeds, but I suspect that they’d likely be unreliable for those situations? It would be interesting to know how they perform at around 20ft lbs in .177 though.

Yes agreed- it's a permenant juggle between depositing energy and accuracy when it comes to pellet design. Accuracy is the no 1 priority IMO but as you say- if the ranges are v sensible fair enough.

 

[Rake Aboot]

I think the physics is considerably more complicated than that.

As I recognised- deformation will be greater with speed- but its still minimal. I doubt the extra speed would lead to any meaningful deformation for most pellets. Perhaps a few % with Hades.

Just how much more energy a FAC 177 pellet imparts vs sub 12 I don't know. It certainly isn't simple physics. And I suspect its considerably less than you would hope. The way the animals body would reject the external force- and how this would vary depending on the pellet speed- is way beyond my understanding.

Hydrostatic shock certainly doesn't happen at subsonic speeds.

When comparing 22LR to 12 ft lb- you are varying far too many variables. Bullet vs pellet, weight, shape, density, speed, deformation potential etc. Your comparison is meaningless.

Indeed you need more energy to leave more- but that certainly isn't the only requirement.

I could potentially envisage a slower pellet being entirely stopped in an animal- and thus the full ft lbs being absorbed- with an embedded pellet preventing the wound channel from closing up. Vs a faster pellet exiting and potentially depositing less internally. Honestly it's beyond my imagination. But I wouldn't assume it was simple physics.

Without wanting to sound rude, you seem to be just looking to argue the point with nothing to back up any suppositions.

Having shot thousands of rabbits with both air , fac air , .22lr .22wmr and .253
I’ll trust what Ive learned.
FAC air hits harder than sub 12 and kills cleaner.
I’ll leave it at that rather than talk in circles.