Fac air is it worth it ?

[Bowland blades]

Is that 20 ft lb limit based on the max power a springer can comfortably produce ? It seems a little arbitrary. It puts a .22 pellet trajectory somewhere below that of a sub 12 .177

I don't think exact FAC power is that important in FAC air rifles. Very few airgun quarry will benefit from the additional energy (except perhaps fox). But you may as well have the flattest trajectory you can- with whatever pellets suit the rifle. Something around 950fps seems a rough limit for pellets. Slugs can approach 1050 I believe.

So for .22 somewhere around 30-35ft lbs gives you the flattest trajectory possible.

When you can clear out a whole field of rabbits with a CF its hard returning to long careful stalks taking 35 yard shots

No its not based on what a spring piston airgun can do , its about on what airgun quarry needs . A 22 Lr can shoot a lot better a lot further again , 22CF like my .22 hornet or 223 rem can go still further ,its definitely all about what energy the airgun does not produce that makes it most useful to myself , not what it can ! To my mind , I dont think I have not had at least one air rifle in my possession for something like 45 years now ?

 

[25 Sharps]

No it’s not based on what a spring piston airgun can do , it’s about on what airgun quarry needs . A 22 Lr can shoot a lot better a lot further again , 22CF like my .22 hornet or 223 rem can go still further ,its definitely all about what energy the airgun does not produce that makes it most useful to myself , not what it can ! To my mind , I dont think I have not had at least one air rifle in my possession for something like 45 years now ?

Thats a little harsh IMO

See @billy_boyle_2010, not harsh at all, he has no clue on modern PCPs or the benefits of higher velocity in terms of flat trajectory and power transfer on target, or the fact air rifle pellets bleed energy very, very quickly, yet still feels the need to tell everyone what they should or shouldn’t be doing.

And it’s the same with every bloody subject he speaks about!!

 

[25 Sharps]

Without wanting to sound rude, you seem to be just looking to argue the point with nothing to back up any suppositions.

Having shot thousands of rabbits with both air , fac air , .22lr .22wmr and .253
I’ll trust what Ive learned.
FAC air hits harder than sub 12 and kills cleaner.
I’ll leave it at that rather than talk in circles.

100% FAC air kills quicker, I would only ever head shoot rabbits with a sub 12, body shots with my 32 ft-lb .22 work very well whether that’s rabbits or pigeons.

 

[Klenchblaize]

K

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

No its not based on what a spring piston airgun can do , its about on what airgun quarry needs . A 22 Lr can shoot a lot better a lot further again , 22CF like my .22 hornet or 223 rem can go still further ,its definitely all about what energy the airgun does not produce that makes it most useful to myself , not what it can ! To my mind , I dont think I have not had at least one air rifle in my possession for something like 45 years now ?

I take your point. All normal airgun quarry will experience a quick humane death from 20 ft lbs.

But isn't most shooting more than just energy ? It's about cost, noise, reliability, accuracy, ease of use to name but a few.

The HMR has more ft lbs than any pest species needs (except perhaps fox) and the hornet calibres certainly do. But they are used- and loved- because of their flat trajectory and forgiving shot placement. Thus it's quite easy to justify extra power for other reasons.

I can see the "just enough but not too much" idea can appeal to those with a precise nature- but an extra 200+ fps (eg a 30 ft lb air rifle over a 20) would give you an extra 10-15 yards on your zero distance which would be super useable.

I don't own FAC air. I like the convenience and legality of sub 12- and use rimfire for everything else. But it's pretty clear they are extremely capeable tools and have benefitted from huge leaps in reliability and accuracy over the past 10 years. Decent air rifles- including FAC ones- will often shoot tighter groups than a 22LR out to sensible ranges- especially when the LR is using cheap hunting ammo and the air rifle using normal pellets or slugs.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Without wanting to sound rude, you seem to be just looking to argue the point with nothing to back up any suppositions.

Having shot thousands of rabbits with both air , fac air , .22lr .22wmr and .253
I’ll trust what Ive learned.
FAC air hits harder than sub 12 and kills cleaner.
I’ll leave it at that rather than talk in circles.

FAC in .22 .25 certainly hits really hard. But 177 ? I don't know. If the pellets are exiting with sub 12 anyway- my suspicion is fac .177 isn't hitting *that* much harder or depositing that much more energy. We need a clever physicist/ballistics geek to advise! I can't quite see the need for fac 177. Why not get 950fps in .22 and get something even harder hitting?

But agreed we are going around in circles without some geek to educate us. If you're saying that FAC 177 really seems to kill cleaner and hit harder than sub 12 .177 then that's interesting for sure

 

[Bowland blades]

I take your point. All normal airgun quarry will experience a quick humane death from 20 ft lbs.

But isn't most shooting more than just energy ? It's about cost, noise, reliability, accuracy, ease of use to name but a few.

The HMR has more ft lbs than any pest species needs (except perhaps fox) and the hornet calibres certainly do. But they are used- and loved- because of their flat trajectory and forgiving shot placement. Thus it's quite easy to justify extra power for other reasons.

I can see the "just enough but not too much" idea can appeal to those with a precise nature- but an extra 200+ fps (eg a 30 ft lb air rifle over a 20) would give you an extra 10-15 yards on your zero distance which would be super useable.

I don't own FAC air. I like the convenience and legality of sub 12- and use rimfire for everything else. But it's pretty clear they are extremely capeable tools and have benefitted from huge leaps in reliability and accuracy over the past 10 years. Decent air rifles- including FAC ones- will often shoot tighter groups than a 22LR out to sensible ranges- especially when the LR is using cheap hunting ammo and the air rifle using normal pellets or slugs.

I have owned plenty air rifles and still do 12 ftlb and fac from modest to high power . Shooting normal lead waisted pellets FAC power levels doesn't give a competent shot a lot of extra range it just makes for easier shooting within the normal FT / HFT target ranges ie 55 yards .
You seriously need to look at what folks are doing with 22LR in std velocity and high quality long range ammo 600 yards with proper accuraccy. No airgun is going to better them . Personally i like the fact i can take out some CCI quiets at around 30 ft lb with a 40 grain some Subs at around 80 ftlb and some velocitors at 120 ft lb . all shot from a very reliable , low maintenance , inexpensive say £150 or less rifle.
No , for me personally the best bit of an airgun is its low power and super inexpensive traditionally waisted pellets . Heck never mind them being tools i spent years shooting as many as 500 airgun pellets a session at steel knockover targets or empty 12 bore cases

 

[Beretta V]

Is that sling made by Robert Radcliffe? recognise the touchmark

I don’t hear that name very often!
I have a Radcliffe shotgun

 

[Bo Diddley]

can't quite see the need for fac 177

It's quite well known that .177 Fac is pretty much a waste of time, especially how the system is set in this country, a few extra ftlbs would be nice but with the sub 12 limit we have the pain isn't worth the gain.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

I have owned plenty air rifles and still do 12 ftlb and fac from modest to high power . Shooting normal lead waisted pellets FAC power levels doesn't give a competent shot a lot of extra range it just makes for easier shooting within the normal FT / HFT target ranges ie 55 yards .
You seriously need to look at what folks are doing with 22LR in std velocity and high quality long range ammo 600 yards with proper accuraccy. No airgun is going to better them . Personally i like the fact i can take out some CCI quiets at around 30 ft lb with a 40 grain some Subs at around 80 ftlb and some velocitors at 120 ft lb . all shot from a very reliable , low maintenance , inexpensive say £150 or less rifle.
No , for me personally the best bit of an airgun is its low power and super inexpensive traditionally waisted pellets . Heck never mind them being tools i spent years shooting as many as 500 airgun pellets a session at steel knockover targets or empty 12 bore cases

I think I'm really referring to hunting when I'm comparing 22lr to FAC air. Most people consider 75, perhaps 100 yards the typical limit of 22LR hunting range. FAC air can match this by most accounts. Certainly with slugs it's v similar. And even pellets fall just 100fps short of 22 subs. I see your point that 22lr bullets are varied and give lots of options.

I can certainly believe the expensive 22lr target setups with super pricey target ammo and their 600 yard accuracy- I'm only really comparing hunting setups. But I suppose one could hunt with a cheap bolt action and familiar expensive target ammo and stretch a 22lr out quite far- beyond fac air range.

I shall probably experiment with 22lr ammo a bit more in truth- it does sound like there are some quite varied options out there

 

[25 Sharps]

As for expansion, use a soft pellet at decent velocity and they do expand.

This is an air arms 18 gr leaving at 880 fps after going through a rabbit’s spine (neck). This is particularly good expansion but they all expand to some extent if hitting bone.

 

[villaman]

I have owned plenty air rifles and still do 12 ftlb and fac from modest to high power . Shooting normal lead waisted pellets FAC power levels doesn't give a competent shot a lot of extra range it just makes for easier shooting within the normal FT / HFT target ranges ie 55 yards .
You seriously need to look at what folks are doing with 22LR in std velocity and high quality long range ammo 600 yards with proper accuraccy. No airgun is going to better them . Personally i like the fact i can take out some CCI quiets at around 30 ft lb with a 40 grain some Subs at around 80 ftlb and some velocitors at 120 ft lb . all shot from a very reliable , low maintenance , inexpensive say £150 or less rifle.
No , for me personally the best bit of an airgun is its low power and super inexpensive traditionally waisted pellets . Heck never mind them being tools i spent years shooting as many as 500 airgun pellets a session at steel knockover targets or empty 12 bore cases

Don’t think we will change your thinking on FAC air . seem you are stuck in your ways , which is perfectly ok , but don’t knock FAC air which is more than capable of .22 lr in many ways . Like I said I have both 22lr & FAC air and FAC air is my go to gun for pest control out to 80 -150 yards depending on if using pellets or slugs

 

[Rake Aboot]

It's quite well known that .177 Fac is pretty much a waste of time, especially how the system is set in this country, a few extra ftlbs would be nice but with the sub 12 limit we have the pain isn't worth the gain.

Spoken like a man who has never used it lol.
Quite well known by who exactly haha?

.177 fac is most definitely not a waste of time.

In my very long and mixed experience the closest to a waste of time is sub 12 .22.
That limit definitely needs raised.
Note , I’ve not said it is , just that it’s the closest to.

 

[Bo Diddley]

Spoken like a man who has never used it lol.
Quite well known by who exactly haha?

.177 fac is most definitely not a waste of time.

In my very long and mixed experience the closest to a waste of time is sub 12 .22.
That limit definitely needs raised.
Note , I’ve not said it is , just that it’s the closest to.

.177Fac is the least popular fac caliber out of the three most common calibers available, .177 - .22 - .25, if it offered advantages over the other two it would be more popular.
I shoot sub 12ftlbs .177 a lot, maybe 2000 rats every year on average, and .22 Fac air a similar amount.

 

[Rake Aboot]

.177Fac is the least popular fac caliber out of the three most common calibers available, .177 - .22 - .25, if it offered advantages over the other two it would be more popular.
I shoot sub 12ftlbs .177 a lot, maybe 2000 rats every year on average, and .22 Fac air a similar amount.

Hold on
What you said was it was well known that .177 fac was a waste of time .
I’ll assume you’ve used it for a while to be able to say that , or is that not what you’re saying ?

No one has said it’s better than .22 or .25 .

 

[Bo Diddley]

Hold on
What you said was it was well known that .177 fac was a waste of time .
I’ll assume you’ve used it for a while to be able to say that , or is that not what you’re saying ?

No one has said it’s better than .22 or .25 .

I said it's pretty much a waste of time... if you are going to the trouble of getting Fac Air on your ticket I doubt very many people opt for .177 over .22 or .25, obviously you have and love it.
If you put a thread up on Airgunforums uk and ask the question about .177 Fac I'm sure you will get some interesting info to think about Rake

 

[Bowland blades]

Don’t think we will change your thinking on FAC air . seem you are stuck in your ways , which is perfectly ok , but don’t knock FAC air which is more than capable of .22 lr in many ways . Like I said I have both 22lr & FAC air and FAC air is my go to gun for pest control out to 80 -150 yards depending on if using pellets or slugs

How can i be stuck in my ways , when i have owned both and still do ? That simply makes no sense at all . Yeah i dropped PCP air because its a total PITA with bottle filling / testing , leaks on the rifles and bottles, general faults and service requirements etc etc . While costing more to purchase than a .22 rf . Going rate for a CZ 452 etc on a dealers SH rack is perhaps £150 at present ( way less at auction) . No charging kit and complex services on that to do and no great search for your favourite ammo in various types , brands and power output.
There is absolutely no practical benefit in a high power PCP rifle until we talk those that shoot drugs into flighty animals . They are however to many who own them interesting things to tinker and experiment with OR you Police force has a thing about trying not to grant FAC for powder burners for first time grants .
Time will tell what occurs long term about lead use and if it ever does get removed by further legislation i am pretty certain it will effect future design of both a heck of a lot

 

[Rake Aboot]

Yeh, most of that is rubbish really.
I get the impression you’re just trying to wind certain members up.

 

[Bowland blades]

Spoken like a man who has never used it lol.
Quite well known by who exactly haha?

.177 fac is most definitely not a waste of time.

In my very long and mixed experience the closest to a waste of time is sub 12 .22.
That limit definitely needs raised.
Note , I’ve not said it is , just that it’s the closest to.

Gosh you realise there are more vermin shot with sub 12 .22 air than any other rifle in the UK ? being honest my first gun hunts where with one in the 70s and i still use the sub 12 a fair old amount . If we just said rats and feral pigeon we are talking a couple of those massive roll on roll off skips filled . There are two not more than 10 ft away from me right now sat at the kitchen table . One of them i have used very close to 40 years . In just one night Barn Clearance of Feral pigeon we counted the slain in wheel barrow loads not individuals .
15 ftlb is likely the most useable .22 airgun or 17 most likely, though i only ever favoured it in FT ? But 12 still gets the job done .
The airgun is the undisputed king of low power pest control and the most popular is the .22 size . I have shot a lot with .177 but it just hasn't got the thump and hole size to make that DRT kill if slightly off the zone , 20 proved great but often proved tough to find in the shops and like the 28 bore " real tough to scrounge" off mates when you run out !
12 ftlb 22 air shoots a nice trajectory to 35 yards , 17 can do 40 . both should really be used to no more than 40 . Remember those are real world in a range of conditions and circumstance ! Like many i have made some crazy long shots that worked out but likely like most i forgot all those missed or wounded

 

[Bowland blades]

Yeh, most of that is rubbish really.
I get the impression you’re just trying to wind certain members up.

so far it seems to be the exact opposite as my intention was just to say things as I personally see them , seems a few agree with me so far anyhow