Finally...the tide of opinion is turning
- Thread starter zambezi
- Start date
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
I must admit with this stuff i do find it quite scary that only 1 view is correct and everything against that view is smeared and author 'cancelled'
I've heard wot sound like quite clever reasonable questions by people who should know wot there talking about just shot down or ignored as it does fit the rhetoric
Don't get me wrong i'm sure there is plenty of politcs, egos, 1 up manship, settling scores some of which might be quite subtle if u don't know everything behind the scenes ( university rivalries, whos invested money where with wot pharma company, even trival things like whos stole whos bird/ job/grant etc) plus the undoubted tin hat brigade on top.
But i do think its wrong to automatically label anyone questioning the vaccine effeciancy, lockdowns etc as in the tin hat brigade.
For the life of me i really can't understand why quite a few 100% clear and conclusive studies have never been carried out on Invermectin, it seems to tick most boxes cheap, easy to produce and distrubute and has a long history of being used in humans wit very little side effects.
Really the only question that neds answered is does it truely work for covid?? And possibly not enough profit in it for pharma companies
And i just can't understand why its not been proven 100% 1 way or other by now.
At the very least it would quick shut up the believers, well on that subject atleast
As a shooter i do find it quite worrying (althou we're all well used to it now) is fake news and either poor science or biased science, anti's are probably the creators of fake news, we all remember the august stories about released grouse etc that were repeatedly peddalled for years.
Its now moved on to many subjects and all walks of life, global warming, veganism being greener/more environmentally friendly ( aye cos theirs fields of soya, advocado and wot ever else they eat growing all over uk, could understand it if thy only ate tatties, carrots and turnips and berries in season!!)
I've heard wot sound like quite clever reasonable questions by people who should know wot there talking about just shot down or ignored as it does fit the rhetoric
Don't get me wrong i'm sure there is plenty of politcs, egos, 1 up manship, settling scores some of which might be quite subtle if u don't know everything behind the scenes ( university rivalries, whos invested money where with wot pharma company, even trival things like whos stole whos bird/ job/grant etc) plus the undoubted tin hat brigade on top.
But i do think its wrong to automatically label anyone questioning the vaccine effeciancy, lockdowns etc as in the tin hat brigade.
For the life of me i really can't understand why quite a few 100% clear and conclusive studies have never been carried out on Invermectin, it seems to tick most boxes cheap, easy to produce and distrubute and has a long history of being used in humans wit very little side effects.
Really the only question that neds answered is does it truely work for covid?? And possibly not enough profit in it for pharma companies
And i just can't understand why its not been proven 100% 1 way or other by now.
At the very least it would quick shut up the believers, well on that subject atleast
As a shooter i do find it quite worrying (althou we're all well used to it now) is fake news and either poor science or biased science, anti's are probably the creators of fake news, we all remember the august stories about released grouse etc that were repeatedly peddalled for years.
Its now moved on to many subjects and all walks of life, global warming, veganism being greener/more environmentally friendly ( aye cos theirs fields of soya, advocado and wot ever else they eat growing all over uk, could understand it if thy only ate tatties, carrots and turnips and berries in season!!)
Kowa Pharmaceuticals [Japan] have run stage 3 trials of Ivermectin against all variants of SARS-CoV-2.
Earlier this week Kowa stated that non-clinical trials showed that Ivermectin was effective against even Omicron. As reported by Reuters:
This trial is being run in conjunction with Kitasato University and is registered in the Japanese Registry of Clinical Trials.
Final compilation of all clinical trial results are due for publication on 31st May 2022.
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
Aye exactly like this but more of them, i just can't understand why 2 years in no more studies have been done, even duplicate studies in different uni's/countries to back the other results up which ever way it goes, as the tin foil brigade will no doubt still bang on about it being a cover up anyway if it goes the wrong way.
But i imagine most of the more moderate believers would take the studies results, provided well thought studies out etc
Especially with the amount of cases there has been wouldn't be hard to find test subjects.
Many of the more informed seem to think it won't work and even if that is the case and their study proves it, it's still a good definitive result and the debate can move on to debating about the next 'wonder' drug.
Eventually we may find 1 that does, as i really don't think vaccines every 6 months is the way forward
But i imagine most of the more moderate believers would take the studies results, provided well thought studies out etc
Especially with the amount of cases there has been wouldn't be hard to find test subjects.
Many of the more informed seem to think it won't work and even if that is the case and their study proves it, it's still a good definitive result and the debate can move on to debating about the next 'wonder' drug.
Eventually we may find 1 that does, as i really don't think vaccines every 6 months is the way forward
Rewulf
Well-Known Member
That's because after 2 years the pandemic isn't really the issue it was.
Now that the possibility of antivirals being used as a major tool to combat it isn't really as important, they can sit back and say that vaccines beat the virus.
But did they?
They certainly helped, but the main thing that really put paid to the threat to life, was omicron.
As the whole debacle calms down, we will probably find that ivermectin really does help, but by now it doesn't really matter, and people will be uninterested in if, what and why its took so long to establish.
However, its very telling that a vast proportion of the drug and medical community, were absolutely positive it didn't work, whilst developing patented antivirals that work in a highly similar fashion... Probably had nothing to do with them costing 1000s of time's more money.
Being vaxxed every 6 months would be a viable option for those most vulnerable, if it came down to it, but we could be looking at a mutation every 3 months or so, that renders the jab ineffective, we still don't have an omicron specific jab, over 3 months later, and it's very clear that the vaccine used lately isn't very effective at stopping omicron infection, even with the much vaunted booster.
mchughcb
Well-Known Member
They way omicron is going down here, given a 92% double vaccination over the age of 12, 35% with boostrs and with the mask mandates, billions of litres of alcohol wiping has made absolutely no difference.
Random tests now being conducted in QLD are showing 40 to 80% were unaware they had covid and the remaining have mild symptoms but ever ferken day the media will wheel out somebody who had a life changing experience to keep the majority petrified.
Its like these people never experienced any trauma to their body in their entire life. I had nobody shoving a camera in my face on the fourth pneumonia bout.
Random tests now being conducted in QLD are showing 40 to 80% were unaware they had covid and the remaining have mild symptoms but ever ferken day the media will wheel out somebody who had a life changing experience to keep the majority petrified.
Its like these people never experienced any trauma to their body in their entire life. I had nobody shoving a camera in my face on the fourth pneumonia bout.
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
While i don't think the vaccine has possibly made as much difference as some claim or would like to claim but the simple fact is u will never ever know unless u had a study/control population given a placebo vaccine and compared infection rates, severity of illness, length of illness and death rates.
But u can't effectively play russian roulette with peoples lifes if the vaccine did really work.
Imagine the court cases if a relative died but had been given a placebo vaccine??.
Yes hospital admission and ICU beds are down and so is severity of the virus, which could be claimed was entirely due to the vaccine ( or playing devils advocate here u could say the same about invermectin in some ancetodal sudies too) but that it all could be down to a combination of the new milder mutated strain and much of the population having more of a natural immunity than otherwise thought.
If u look back in time when western an was exploring and finding new countries and new locals/tribes often after the 1st visit high % would die of simple things like common cold as never been exposed to it before, but every visit after that less would die even thou the strains would likely be different ( esp if ships coming from different countries)
And that was all before vaccines
Same in the animal kingdom if u look a rabbits with mixi, would happen in cycles lots of rabbits hit very hard 1st cycle of mixi then less so after each passing cycle as rabbits become immune, then mixi seems to almost die away locally for years until rabbits seem to lose their immunity and the same thing starts again.
I'm not anti vax it's just im really not convinced these vacccines work very well at all in the real world ( despite wot the lab studies claim to state, at 1 point the scottish government/snp were claim 80x less likey to catch it, yet thousands were catching it every day, i'd love to see 80x written as a percentage, whicj just proves their plucking numbers from thin air ) and esp so with a virus that is and will mutate.
Ps Jagare
How did sweden fair in the long run compared to other similar countries??
With no lockdowns did it go down the vaccine route also or because it went for herd immunity intially in theory shouldn't need to vaccinate?
But u can't effectively play russian roulette with peoples lifes if the vaccine did really work.
Imagine the court cases if a relative died but had been given a placebo vaccine??.
Yes hospital admission and ICU beds are down and so is severity of the virus, which could be claimed was entirely due to the vaccine ( or playing devils advocate here u could say the same about invermectin in some ancetodal sudies too) but that it all could be down to a combination of the new milder mutated strain and much of the population having more of a natural immunity than otherwise thought.
If u look back in time when western an was exploring and finding new countries and new locals/tribes often after the 1st visit high % would die of simple things like common cold as never been exposed to it before, but every visit after that less would die even thou the strains would likely be different ( esp if ships coming from different countries)
And that was all before vaccines
Same in the animal kingdom if u look a rabbits with mixi, would happen in cycles lots of rabbits hit very hard 1st cycle of mixi then less so after each passing cycle as rabbits become immune, then mixi seems to almost die away locally for years until rabbits seem to lose their immunity and the same thing starts again.
I'm not anti vax it's just im really not convinced these vacccines work very well at all in the real world ( despite wot the lab studies claim to state, at 1 point the scottish government/snp were claim 80x less likey to catch it, yet thousands were catching it every day, i'd love to see 80x written as a percentage, whicj just proves their plucking numbers from thin air ) and esp so with a virus that is and will mutate.
Ps Jagare
How did sweden fair in the long run compared to other similar countries??
With no lockdowns did it go down the vaccine route also or because it went for herd immunity intially in theory shouldn't need to vaccinate?
Rasputin
Well-Known Member
Can’t wait for this bad boy to be peer reviewed by people with sense rather than the nerd epidemiologists afraid for the lives. Maybe then we will accept what those of sound mind new all along that we threw the baby out with the bath water economically.
www.webmd.com
Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview
COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.
www.webmd.com
Jagare
Well-Known Member
For me personally nothing much changed for me over the last couple of years. I still went to work in the concrete factory all be it part time. Split tea and dinner breaks, hand sanitizing at every entrance. Till the moronic variant 14 out of 60+works caught the lurgy and one woman spent a couple of days in hospital.
I still had my once a month lunch at the Thai restaurant and traveled where ever took my fancy apart from abroad.
Although we had no lock down the covid restrictions put in place really only applied to the big cities. There's a lot of Sweden outside these areas.
Anders Tegnell informed people what precaution they should take and in the main people followed said advice.
The vaccination program went well once under way with a lower take up in big cities because of there large immigrant populations.
All in all some things could have been handled better but at least we did not see here the total clusterphuck that went on in many other places including the UK.
Swedens economy has come through the pandemic with a few bumps and scrapes but on the whole its doing OK.
I've had my 3 jabs , caught covid when I went back to England for my Daughters wedding end of November. I was a lot sicker when I had the Hong Kong Flu in 69
You can look at sweden, but may I suggest looking at the other end of the spectrum... Israel. The most vaccinated, possibly one of the strictest regimes for entry.
How has it fared? Almost no different to others who partially vaxed or simply didnt try very hard......
Its all a bit moot now, if omicron can effectively skirt past those with vaccinations. How many with vax are now being infected?
It may have been a lot cheaper, and with similar effectiveness, not to lockdown, not to delay cancer and cardiac operations, not to xause untold mental health issues, and to keep our older community members more mobile, more active and enjoying their final years instead of under a very deliberate psychological campaign of fear and intimidation.
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
Aye that's wot i mean the vaccine may not be doing wot it is claimed to, definately not against omnicorn and possibly not even with delta, the data may sort of show it is/has but similar numbers might have resulted even without the vaccine.
U will just never know 1 way or other
But no government health adviser is going to come out and say tripple jabbing the entire country down to 12 year old was a complete waste of money, and now the way things are in the media/internet any scientist who has stats that show it will be shot down as fake news and smeared.
Possibly the more frail, weaker more succeptable sadly passed with the 1st wave so even without any vaccine the survival rates of those left would be higher for the 2nd wave.
Really the only way to tell would have been to give some placebo vaccines out randomly, so the people receiving them live the same life/take the sam risks a vaccinated person would..
Comparing me to a fully vaccinated city person wouldn't be fair as i chose not to be jabbed but have also chosen to limit the risks i take, not going to pubs, fitba games etc in the short term
Thats the problem u have looking at different countries and cultures, too many subtle differences.
Too often like comparing apples to oranges
I always thought that wot worked in sweden wouldn't work here, for a few reasons but the swedes do seem to be a fitter healthier population than here and a far more rural common sense country.
The way many in this country live in cities and big towns is just not sustainable, this buying coffee at starbucks tc.
when they opened drive throus up after lock down was massive (well massive to me) traffic jams of people wanting a coffee or a burger.
Must admit i'm glad i wasn't the 1 making the big decisions for this and even with hindsight its not entirely clear wot has worked and wot didn't, which is quite unusual in itself and shows how complicated it was/is.
I do think they needed the 1st lock down to give the nhs time to breath, i really can't see how that didn't slow cases and deaths down and the government have to err on the side of caution with cases rising so rapidily, after that i have no idea.
1 thing i did say at the start was young healthy folk should of ben encouraged to have a 2 week 'covid' party at butlins etc with some medical supervison and just get bevvied for 2 weeks partying. Most most likely wouldn't know if it was a bad hangover oor covid but u had nurses nearby if the small% had a bad case, then 2 weeks later u have a load of folk with natural immunity to hurry herd immunity along.
I think NZ had the right stance originally for itself and where it is located the whole country was fairly easy to self isolate not really a massive multi cutured country esp outside of Auckland and they already had strict immigation laws.
But now with the new weaker strains they should be throwing the doors wide open only vaccinated the older or frail/health conditions and letting it spread. if they're short of ventalators/health care equipment i'm sure they could buy/hire some in from elsewhere 1st, must be mountains of new stuff lying about unused.
Jagare
Well-Known Member
Covid especially the moronic strain has been running rampant in Sweden even though we had a good take up of the jab. I think we can mostly agree that the vaccine won't stop you getting nor spreading the Lurgy. It does seem to stop people getting seriously ill when they get covid though.
Here in Sweden we get info about covid and its spread with context. Context helps put the situation into perspective.
when Covid first appeared it did not take me long to work out that lock downs don't work. History tells us that a pandemic lasts for 2/3 years so how can a months lock down possibly work. Save the health service? Its not our job to save the health service. We pay tax to keep a broken system running. Same with care for the elderly.
The lack of and amount of wrong info and scare mongering over the pandemic period has been amazing. You expect this bullcrap from Twitter and other social media but from government and there advisers it beyond words.
That would explain a lot, particularly if it’s rampant here too
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
I agree with wot u have said jagare but there may even be a case to argue that the vaccine doesn't even stop u getting seriously ill with this strain, if its not preventing u catching it like it did earlier does it really work that well at lessening it with this strain??
Sad when ur at the stage u no longer trust much info realised from official government sources, but i know i scotland its press releases sometimes had widely different claims and numbers to the similar press release south of the border.
it could possibly also be argued the weaker strain, the weaker/more succeptable people have already died from it and some natural immunity building up have lessened the severity of the lurgy too.
Or possibly a bit of all of the above, very hard to actually isolate just 1 factor
Sad when ur at the stage u no longer trust much info realised from official government sources, but i know i scotland its press releases sometimes had widely different claims and numbers to the similar press release south of the border.
it could possibly also be argued the weaker strain, the weaker/more succeptable people have already died from it and some natural immunity building up have lessened the severity of the lurgy too.
Or possibly a bit of all of the above, very hard to actually isolate just 1 factor
Agree. There is an argument for offering the vaccine-du-jour to the vulnerable. But that must remain a personal choice, even amongst that group, based on individual health assessments. But there is zero argument for mass vaccination against SARS-CoV-2.
Virologist Luc Montagnier stated that imperfect vaccines, deployed widely in the population, artificially promote the rise of dominant strains. Omicron was measured to spread fastest in the vaccinated, so Montagnier's statement made during Delta seems on the money.
Studies now show natural immunity is [6x] superior to vaccine-induced protection. It is definitely longer lasting. And other research shows that covid vaccination given to infected-recovered persons does not improve on their naturally acquired immunity.
mchughcb
Well-Known Member
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