I personally think such a person would be breaking the food safety regs. But that wasn’t the question. I’ve shot deer with copper and cup and core bullets. Interested to know how, without a laboratory, a game dealer is going to ensure all venison received are lead free. If it can’t be readily checked snd verified, it’s just more virtue signalling wokery.
Game dealer not accepting lead shot carcasses
- Thread starter imnotrucknut
- Start date
Firstly, Because "EU REACH Regulation has been brought into UK law under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. REACH, and related legislation, have been replicated in the UK with the necessary changes to make it operable in a domestic context. The key principles of the EU REACH Regulation have been retained."
Whatever EU REACH decide to do, and when, the UK will replicate. To think otherwise is delusional. Any UK manufacturer still wanting to sell ammunition to the EU will have to comply. Any UK distributor importing ammunition from the EU will receive only compliant products. We won't be able to pick and choose the bits that certain industry sectors would like to ignore. Indeed some may already be seeing the future sales opportunities that may be there for them.
UK REACH explained - HSE
Secondly, because a week ago it was announced by Environment Minister Rebecca Pow that "We are considering restrictions under the UK’s new chemical regulation system, UK REACH. We have requested an official review of the evidence to begin today and will launch a public consultation in due course."
Coverage of plans to phase out lead ammunition in bid to protect wildlife – Defra in the media
There is national and regional coverage in the Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, The Times and Yorkshire Post today on our plans to phase out lead ammunition in a bid to protect wildlife. The coverage focuses on the government’s plans and
deframedia.blog.gov.uk
Thirdly, we are only one year into the "voluntary" five year transition away from lead. In four years time I expect that the products on the market by then will be considerably improved. Personally I think the momentum will build more quickly than that.
Fourthly, a great deal of science is out there, almost all confirming that the dangers in lead shot game, from both rifle bullets and shotgun pellets, to human health, bird health, and the animals that feed on everything from discarded gralloch to the abandoned carcasses of vermin, is real.
Fifthly, the science studying the significance of the lead levels in meat eaten regularly by hunters, their family, children, fetuses, or given away to friends, can be very significantly higher than that eaten infrequently by ordinary members of the public. To the extent that some countries make recommendations such as that adults should restrict themselves so, for example, no more than 200g per week of such meat be eaten by adults.
Sixthly, like it or not, going forward, at some point you aren't going to be able to get your hands on lead factory ammo. The components possibly still, though they will have little legitimate use. If not you will be back to using target bullets as in the bad old days of the A-Max V-Max situation, or even casting your own bullets.
It might reach the point that the Deer Acts are updated to outlaw lead bullets.
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I'm not so sure you are right. The game dealer may not take samples to a lab, but food standards agencies around the world regularly take samples of meat and other produce to laboratories to check for contamination and even DNA. So the scenario is more that they decide to do a spot check and find minute particles of lead and this leads to the game dealer possibly being prosecuted. He in turn knows who has supplied that deer and so he passes on that information and the person certifying it also potentially gets prosecuted but almost certainly will never supply anything to that game dealer again and could quite possibly find it difficult to find an outlet anywhere.
Finally - thanks. Yes I can see that happening, though not aware of any FHI’s checking for lead in venison yet?
My point is not copper vs lead debate, it’s simply that if there is no reliable check in place (as there is from soil association for organic produce for example) then we revert to trust. Sadly that got us the horse meat scandal, which is the last thing British game needs.
Stalkers by default have been checked to meet the fit and competent test, but everyone can succumb to pressure. If there is a check and balance in place then the likelihood of lead shot venison being present in a lead free chain is reduced. Not eliminated of course, but reduced.
jon2
Well-Known Member
I was going to say the same but you beat me to it. Yes no fancy dan equipment required, as you say it’s obvious to the human eye.
Yes, I think what you say is very sensible. I changed over to non toxic because I’d used up the last of my .30 cal 150 gr nosler bullets and thought id future proof my load as lead has started it’s decline now. I’d used non toxic in Germany for a few years and had been very impressed with the performance of it.
If you skin the deer or boar etc and take a look around the shot area you will find very small ( grain of sand to dust size) particles of lead if it’s been shot with a lead core copper bullet. It’s amazing how far the distribution of the tiny fragments have gone if you really look carefully with a bright torch.
the worst I’ve seen is on head and neck shot fallow where bone has been hit, the lead particles are often all the way down their neck and over the loin and rib cage.
bottom line is, I don’t want to ingest that lead dust and I don’t want my dog to or anyone else either. Especially not when I get super results from my non toxic nosler bullets.
kindest regards, Olaf
Yes, it is extremely obvious if you look for the lead particles. I think they are bad enough, but I hate to think how bad the really fine dust is when you grind it up and put some salt with it and some red wine and let it marinate in a sausage . Toxic dinner!
kindest regards, Olaf
geoffw
Well-Known Member
And given the size of the spatter zone, possibly even some Peruvian quinoa and bits of spanish melon too.180gr hollow nose lead core 30-06 on a Roe, if they could find any Roe left then they were definitely going to find lead
geoffw
Well-Known Member
Hi Olaf, I'm genuinely interested- do you have any photos you can share please? If copper reduces shot damage that's a plus in my book.
Does it matter?
If the dealer is saying no less shot and someone ignores that then they are in breach of any terms and conditions and, without a doubt, negligent if there is ever a claim.
Whether you agree with it or not it doesn't stand the shooting community in good stead to blatantly ignore this.
geoffw
Well-Known Member
as opposed to shooting a ...
Lead levels in farmed meat are as you say, monitored.
However there is, as yet, no limit set for that in wild game. Though it is well understood that it frequently exceeds these levels.
However there are proposals to do so, and bring it in line with that stipulated for farmed meat.
E.g. see:
Setting maximum levels for lead in game meat in EC regulations: An adjunct to replacement of lead ammunition - Ambio
Each year, hunters from 12 of the 27 European Union (EU) countries and the UK shoot over 6 million large game mammals, 12 million rabbits and hares and over 80 million birds. They support an international game meat market worth over 1.1 thousand million Euros. Animals shot with lead ammunition...
link.springer.com
I think they have a wait rose down south in Embra. Frankly I’ve heard rumours of the folk shopping there. Could do with a bit more lead in them....
(And for all you ‘rose members card carrying soft southern belles on here, no offence
)
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Yes they can, the lead particles travel pretty much throughout the whole carcass . With a head shot deer there will be large amounts of lead dust in the neck and probably also in the loin too.
K
kindest regards, Olaf
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
I told you lot years and year ago the lead ban was coming, did anyone listed to little old me?
NOPE
NOPE
Hi, I don’t think I ever took any pictures of that. Lead fragments in game meat are something I’ve been so used to seeing all my life. I’m surprised that anyone could miss seeing it but maybe some people don’t look that closely etc.
As soon as I realised that there were very good lead free bullets that I could be hand loading I decided to use them instead.
The fact of the matter is that the lead is more often than not very easy to spot with your bare eyes. Failing that, you could just scan it with a metal detector.
kindest regards, Olaf
To answer the question, how will the game dealer know?
10 years ago companies were using a hand scanner that determined the chemical composition of a metal. Ie SG grey iron, 303 or 316 stainless Etc, At the time these machines cost £15000.
I have no idea of the cost now but safe to say a lot cheaper. you could google Brucker S1 Titan which I think is one. Now either the game dealers will be buying them or the inspection company will.
simply point and press the button and the information comes up on the screen.
safe to say that they can identify very easily with one of these machines. Not used one myself but we did have a customer comeback and query the material composition on a valve.
10 years ago companies were using a hand scanner that determined the chemical composition of a metal. Ie SG grey iron, 303 or 316 stainless Etc, At the time these machines cost £15000.
I have no idea of the cost now but safe to say a lot cheaper. you could google Brucker S1 Titan which I think is one. Now either the game dealers will be buying them or the inspection company will.
simply point and press the button and the information comes up on the screen.
safe to say that they can identify very easily with one of these machines. Not used one myself but we did have a customer comeback and query the material composition on a valve.
geoffw
Well-Known Member
Yes , quite, ask yourself where the rest of that bullet has gone where there is a complete core and jacket separation.
Some hate lead bullets others love them.
i Personally don’t want to eat game or anything else that’s got lead dust in it so I’m quite happy using the non toxic bullets , and like it or not they are the future.
kindest regards, Olaf
Some hate lead bullets others love them.
i Personally don’t want to eat game or anything else that’s got lead dust in it so I’m quite happy using the non toxic bullets , and like it or not they are the future.
kindest regards, Olaf
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