How do you not get fed up

I’ve got a permanent back injury from 15 years ago, dragging an spiker out of a ditch thinking I was superhuman!

I now pay for that big time.
For sure especially when you consider a lot of stalkers also are usually working in manual labor as well, Its not a great combination for sure.

I have to be careful since I dont produce the proper amount of collagen for my joints, haven't damaged anything (yet) but I admit I lived a pretty sheltered childhood and teenage life regarding strenuous activities so If i'm going to damage anything Its more likely to be now than ever.

I will take advantage of the quads and trailers, and also let the syndicate members mop up the little dink stags I enjoy shooting the bits they dont like going too for the poorer quality roe heads they arent interested in I manage those fine, If I'm shooting a stag It needs to be a nice one or in a grazing field lmo
 
For sure especially when you consider a lot of stalkers also are usually working in manual labor as well, Its not a great combination for sure.

I have to be careful since I dont produce the proper amount of collagen for my joints, haven't damaged anything (yet) but I admit I lived a pretty sheltered childhood and teenage life regarding strenuous activities so If i'm going to damage anything Its more likely to be now than ever.

I will take advantage of the quads and trailers, and also let the syndicate members mop up the little dink stags I enjoy shooting the bits they dont like going too for the poorer quality roe heads they arent interested in I manage those fine, If I'm shooting a stag It needs to be a nice one or in a grazing field lmo
I go by the following quote- red deer are a pain in the arse when they’re alive and they’re an even bigger pain of the arse once they’re dead
 
To the OP drop 8 hinds in a sugar beet field then tell us all how you got on 🙈

I can tell you how it works - 5 mins to shoots them 5 hours to get them in the larder and that’s with a loader and a quad and trailer.

Then you become more than fluent in the queens best English 😂😂😂
I've had a few big Red over the years but never five at once.
I did have five Sika at once but luckily I could get the truck to them and help from friends, and a handy tree.😊
 
I’ve got a permanent back injury from 15 years ago, dragging an spiker out of a ditch thinking I was superhuman!

I now pay for that big time.

I am now of the opinion that if it is not standing on a track where I can drive up to it, it doesn’t get shot end of subject
This is exactly where I am.
I’ve had a professional career of over 40 years, at least 20 spent giving instruction on motorbikes both on/off road.
I managed aged 34 to tear cartilage and tendons in my R knee. On another course a couple of years later I managed to fall down a partially dislodged manhole cover as well, causing injury to the same knee. I was lucky to keep it under the radar at work as they were looking to cull people with industrial injuries and by countless hours spent on a Concept 2 rowing machine I managed to get away without an invasive operation, and by building up my strength to a level required to pass the role related fitness test until the age of 50.
It still took 30 years before I could straighten that R leg out fully. I dare not ski or ice skate anymore and I’m very careful when stalking where I place my feet.
In spite of those restrictions, I am passionate about my deer stalking and involve myself in it as much as possible.
But what I know now are my limitations - particularly around extraction. So if I don’t want to or can’t do the extraction I don’t shoot the deer. Simples.
 
I don’t refer to that in exclusivity whatsoever. Good weight, condition, head, breeding genes - population density for the land, objectives for the land whilst not eradicating the species clearly.

Tim - do you harvest your best rams or pick the ones going to slaughter indiscriminately? Would farmers go and shoot their best breeding bull?

Similarly, the best quality deer should be left until they start going back, it will also keep a lot of fraying young and yearling bucks out of their territory. It will keep good older does with good genes.
You might have a couple of quality deer in a plantation, rather than 6-7 or 10 younger ones.
Your logic would work if you managed deer like a livestock breeder does sheep.

To do that, you need (at a minimum): individually identifiable animals, a pedigree, accurate data on the traits under selection and control over who mates with who. Ideally you also need either control over diet or very good data on what they’re eating.

A really experienced stalker who knows his herd and knows its history only has the first, at best.

After that, it’s all just make believe.
 
This is exactly where I am.
I’ve had a professional career of over 40 years, at least 20 spent giving instruction on motorbikes both on/off road.
I managed aged 34 to tear cartilage and tendons in my R knee. On another course a couple of years later I managed to fall down a partially dislodged manhole cover as well, causing injury to the same knee. I was lucky to keep it under the radar at work as they were looking to cull people with industrial injuries and by countless hours spent on a Concept 2 rowing machine I managed to get away without an invasive operation, and by building up my strength to a level required to pass the role related fitness test until the age of 50.
It still took 30 years before I could straighten that R leg out fully. I dare not ski or ice skate anymore and I’m very careful when stalking where I place my feet.
In spite of those restrictions, I am passionate about my deer stalking and involve myself in it as much as possible.
But what I know now are my limitations - particularly around extraction. So if I don’t want to or can’t do the extraction I don’t shoot the deer. Simples.
Or get a Polaris with a hoist and winch 😉
 
While on the face of it the comparison seems reasonable, in fact it's not.
No, of course I don't send my best ram lambs to slaughter. That's because I'm a ram breeder. However, the vast majority of livestock farmers rear all of their male lambs (and calves) for eventual slaughter. There is no selection taking place whatsoever. When they need a new stock sire they buy one from a specialist breeder, such as myself.

As a breeder, I have tools available to me that other farmers do not have access to:
I can use ultrasound and CT scanning to assess the meat-to-bone ratio and conformation of the live animals, to ensure that only the best are kept;
I can weigh all my lambs at specific ages to assess growth rates;
I can DNA test all my lambs to ensure that parentage information is accurately recorded;
And I can use genomics to increase the accuracy of my breeding predictions. (We were the first sheep breeding project in the UK to have this capability).

Without these "tools", the only methods available (which are also available to managers of wild deer) are phenotypical selection (very difficult when you're 100+ yards away from the animal you're trying to evaluate) or assessment of the carcass post-mortem (which is pointless unless you know the exact parentage of the animal, and are able to identify the parents).

In addition, I can manipulate the "habitat" in which my sheep live. I can use fencing to stop them straying. I can move them to another field if they're short of grass, I can ensure that the best grazing is reserved for times of year that their nutritional requirements are higher, I can buy in extra feed, etc etc. All of these things help ensure that the genetic potential of the animals is fully expressed. Deer managers cannot do this, which further contributes to the inaccuracy of phenotypical selection. Yes, you can selectively retain the ones that appear to "do" better under the circumstances in which they're existing, but without knowing the genetics it is just a shot in the dark. (For example, a fallow buck in excellent condition in the spring may be considered worthy of retaining based on appearance, whereas in reality his good condition may be as a result of having been unsuccessful during the rut, which means as a breeder he should be culled).

A few things I have picked up on as a livestock breeder, which are overlooked by deer managers are:
Success lies in ruthless selection of females. This is far more important than concentrating on the male side of things;
Where females have access to more than one sire (as is the case with wild deer, or in sheep flocks that run multiple sire mating groups), the male that you have identified as the "best" or most "dominant", and therefore assume is the sire of the majority of the offspring, often isn't;
Appearance (phenotype) and performance (genetics) and often poles apart;
About 20% of sets of twins consist of offspring by two different sires. (Twins are very common in roe, I believe?)
Environmental factors mask genetics, as does overstocking.

Something else of interest, that I read about in a study on the genetics of wild red deer, is that the vast majority of stags do not sire any offspring in their lives, regardless of how smart they look.

Also, as the owner of two herds of enclosed fallow deer, I've observed how much influence nutrition has on antler growth and development. Good genetics is not expressed without good nutrition.
Also, whereas a poor deer is unlikely to grow a good head, a good deer may well grow a poor head.

So, my "take home" messages to deer managers from all of the above are:
A lot of traditional selection based on phenotype is merely ****ing in the wind, because it's often not giving you the result that you think you're going to get;
Traditional selection methods are very slow to produce any kind of meaningful difference;
Using antlers as the principal selection criteria isn't particularly helpful;
If you want to improve the quality of the stock on your ground, concentrate on your selection of the females;
Do not assume that the "good" male that you retained will sire "good" offspring, or even any offspring at all;
First and foremost, reduce the population to a level that the habitat can sustain;
Monitor your results. (Carcass weights is the only realistic way to do this with any degree of consistency).
Blimey Tim, you're not just a scruffy old stalker are you.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: VSS
Agree totally ! Not long ago I had a 150m drag across a dry crop field with a large fallow hind. Although it was March, the temp was up and I was sweating like a bas…d by the time I’d got it to a tree to gralloch.
The next muntjac I shot caused me to ‘think on’ about those bigger deer.
And I can get three muntjac into a plastic crate easy without doing my back in ….
Oh dear, how sad, never mind. You did enjoy the stalk though.IMG_20230213_161000724.webp
 
And further to that - I want to keep enjoying it as long as I can. Hence the caution now between what my head thinks I can get away with and what my body tells me I can’t !
 
This is exactly where I am.
I’ve had a professional career of over 40 years, at least 20 spent giving instruction on motorbikes both on/off road.
I managed aged 34 to tear cartilage and tendons in my R knee. On another course a couple of years later I managed to fall down a partially dislodged manhole cover as well, causing injury to the same knee. I was lucky to keep it under the radar at work as they were looking to cull people with industrial injuries and by countless hours spent on a Concept 2 rowing machine I managed to get away without an invasive operation, and by building up my strength to a level required to pass the role related fitness test until the age of 50.
It still took 30 years before I could straighten that R leg out fully. I dare not ski or ice skate anymore and I’m very careful when stalking where I place my feet.
In spite of those restrictions, I am passionate about my deer stalking and involve myself in it as much as possible.
But what I know now are my limitations - particularly around extraction. So if I don’t want to or can’t do the extraction I don’t shoot the deer. Simples.
Knowing you as I do ice skating was a complete surprise!
 
This popped up on my FB feed earlier - made me think of this thread and the idea of "leaving the good ones to breed". Which one would to shoot? Appreciate there's no context on the ground but there's a nice selection to choose from there (or to leave to wander off to your neighbours!).

518382124_10232753169586362_1122670598435627400_n.webp
 
This popped up on my FB feed earlier - made me think of this thread and the idea of "leaving the good ones to breed". Which one would to shoot? Appreciate there's no context on the ground but there's a nice selection to choose from there (or to leave to wander off to your neighbours!).

View attachment 428865
Roll them all over, next door will
 
This popped up on my FB feed earlier - made me think of this thread and the idea of "leaving the good ones to breed". Which one would to shoot? Appreciate there's no context on the ground but there's a nice selection to choose from there (or to leave to wander off to your neighbours!).

View attachment 428865
Second from the left for me. Brow tines are to long for my liking :)
 
  • Haha
Reactions: VSS
This popped up on my FB feed earlier - made me think of this thread and the idea of "leaving the good ones to breed". Which one would to shoot? Appreciate there's no context on the ground but there's a nice selection to choose from there (or to leave to wander off to your neighbours!).

View attachment 428865
Without being able to see their bodies you cannot even begin to make any kind of worthwhile selection. There is nothing in that photo that enables you to identify a potential "good one" among them.
 
Back
Top